II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (Full Version)

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Manstein63 -> II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (8/8/2017 10:45:20 PM)

In the Scenarios, Road to Moscow, Road to Smolensk and Barbarossa. The II.(Sch)/LG.2 is equipped with the BF109E-4B Fighter Bomber
but in the 1941 start campaign games the same unit is equipped with the BF109E/U1 Tactical Bomber.
Which plane type should this unit be using?

Manstein63



Denniss -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (8/9/2017 9:30:25 AM)

Tactial bomber version should be correct. Will change the scenarios.



bc17xm -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/4/2017 9:22:41 PM)

Hi, i am new to Forum.
But longtime GG WIR player.
(I have been working on an extensive correction, within WIR limits, of WIR for Axis OOB).


Been playing WITE a few weeks now and other than few minor issues, like unnecessary disbandments of units, fairly comprehensive.

Been checking out the editor,
as I'm working on some TOE and unit vehicle/aircraft corrections / additions
(which only the TOE, but Not Pool, ones and Not the Unit modifications seem to save when you 'Save Generic Data'), and your response above puzzles me.

Bf 109E-4B shows from 3/1940 thru 5/1942.

Yet in 1941 campaign you use Bf 109E-7/U1, showing from 6/1942 thru 11/1942, and say its correct.

What gives? Was Training Group II.(Schy)/LG.2 a Pre-production trials unit?

Thanks.

Regards, Mark



Telemecus -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/5/2017 9:40:53 AM)

I know the "Sch" air units were training units, just like the "Lehr" were for the army. Usually, and in other cases in the game, that meant they were given old equipment rather than trialling new ones. So given what you noticed that would be a curious difference.



Denniss -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/5/2017 2:51:17 PM)

Sch. = Schlacht = ground attack units. These units actually pioneered the use of armored fighter-bombers in the ground attack role for Luftwaffe
The Lehr units were not school units but rather demonstration unit developing/using new tactics/aircraft



Telemecus -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/5/2017 2:53:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Sch. = Schlacht = ground attack units. These units actually pioneered the use of armored fighter-bombers in the ground attack role for Luftwaffe
The Lehr units were not school units but rather demonstration unit developing/using new tactics/aircraft


Ah that is something I learnt. Hence it would make sense to have airframes in advance of their general deployment? Although some of the others with that designation seem to have very old types?

Apologies I think I have drifted this from a bug thread to a history thread.



bc17xm -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/6/2017 1:43:30 AM)

Hmm, upon closer examination I believe we are all asking the wrong question.

LehrGeswadern (LG)2 was originally (1938 thru 1940), as with LG1, a Training and Demonstration Wing.
And just for laughs, to add more confusion, II.(Sch)/LG2 was originally SG1 using the Hs 123.
No Stab remaining for either LG1 or LG2.


LG2 had 3 Gruppen [Wings] (1 Fighter, 1 SG, 1 Recon) that were split up to support other units after the 1940 campaign:

1.(Jagd - Fighter)/LG2 with 40 Bf 109E-7 supporting the 11th Army as (effectively) I/JG77 in Rumania in 1941.

The Oversize II.(Sch - Ground Attack)/LG2 supporting ACG as (effectively) II./StG2 (SturzkampfGeschwader - Dive Bomber) with,
and this is the big question - what type of aircraft, either:
pre-production versions of the Bf 109E-7/U1 Tactical Bomber (not scheduled to enter production till 6/1942 - some 3 months after II.(Sch)/LG2 withdraws) per the 1941 campaign,
or I think more properly the Bf 109E-4B Fighter Bomber already in production from 3/1940 thru 5/1942.
The Bf 109E-4B seems to make more Logical sense during the 1941 time frame.
Just saying.
Of which, 10.(Sch)/LG2 [Uniquely equipped Staffel with 13 of the, ubiquitous and durable and overworked, though shorter range remaining Hs-123A Tactical Bombers.] were also an integral part of II.(Sch)/LG2 and based alongside the Bf 109s.

III./LG2 was equipped with reconnaissance aircraft.
7.(F - Fighter Recon)/LG2 with Bf 110C-5 1Pz Armee airbase - while Generic Data shows 7.(F)/LG2 with Bf 110C.
Not sure about 8.(F/H)/LG2.
9.(H - Regular Recon)/LG2 with Hs 126B-1 in 2Pz Armee airbase - while Generic Data shows 9.(Pz)/LG2 with Ju-88C-6.
Confused by the discrepancies?, I am???


Meanwhile, LG1, also split up after the 1940 campaign, had 6 Gruppen (3 Bombers - He-111 Ju-88 and possibly Do-17Z - although I think KG2 was only sole user of Do-17Z remaining by 1941?? 1 StG with Ju-87, 1 ZG (Heavy Fighter) with Me-110 and one replacement bomber Gruppe).

III./LG1 with Ju-88A-4 arrives 26/2/1942 - although Generic Data has this listed as III.(Jagd)/LG1 with ex-Italian SM.82 as Air Group line 430, delay 37.
(Jagd) for a Bomber Gruppe??? How?
Plus, Generic Data shows: Stab/LG1, I./LG1 & II./LG1 with SM.82 also, none of the above bombers?? - delay 999.
And, GD also shows IV./LG1 with BLANK aircraft #85 ?? - delay 999.
I take it delay 999 is Event/timeline trigger specific?

I'm guessing some details got missed/mixed-up in programming?

Regards,



morvael -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/6/2017 4:55:01 AM)

I'd ignore air groups and units in generic data. I don't think they were ever updated, since they are not used.



bc17xm -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/6/2017 6:15:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Tactial bomber version should be correct. Will change the scenarios.


Roger that morvael, though I do believe leaving the scenarios alone and modifying the 1941 campains to use the more Logical selection of the Bf 109E-4B for II.(Sch)/LG2 would be the correct course of action.

Vice the improper use of the Bf 109E-7/U1 a year earlier than should be.



Denniss -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/6/2017 7:19:50 PM)

It has to be the tac bomber version as the unit is supposed to use tac bombers only



morvael -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/6/2017 8:03:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bc17xm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

...


Roger that morvael


Denniss is in charge of data, I'm not.



Aufklaerungs -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/6/2017 8:27:17 PM)

So question becomes - Does 109E-4B better meet spec-requirements to be defined as Tac Bomber type rather than FB type?



Denniss -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/6/2017 9:04:40 PM)

E-4B was a fighter equipped with bombs, E-7/U1 dedicated ground attack version with additional armor protecting engine an cooling system.
You'll see a similar separation for the Fw 190A and the 190F.



Aufklaerungs -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/6/2017 9:37:46 PM)

OK. Jetzt alles klar ist. That's clear now. Therefore it would make sense either to change the availability of the E-7/U1 t0 NLT June 1941 or determine with some certainty what aircraft model preceded the 7/U1 in the schlachtgeschwader (e.g., JU 87B? Hs 123? etc.)) on 22 June 41 and add to the schlachtgeschwader staffeln/gruppen for Turns 1 - Turn beginning in Jan 42 (7/U1's availability date).



bc17xm -> RE: II.(Sch)/LG.2 in campaign & scenarios (10/7/2017 7:14:28 PM)

Then, as Spnilhob has suggested, maybe the E-4B would be better classified as a Tac Bomber.

Although it may not have the additional features of the E-7/U1 - in essence it would just happen to be a Tac Bomber that is well equipped to defend itself from attacking fighters.

As the Luftwaffe Handbook notes in regards to SG1, before rename to II.(Sch)/LG2 - "Using the Hs 123 in the ground attack role, it took part in the attack on Poland and the campaign in the west, after which it also received numbers of the Me 109."

Therefore, it should remain equipped with an Bf 109E variant for the 1941 campaign in Russia.

Regards,



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