Red Storm Rising Campaign [Scenario 4 Added For Testing] (Full Version)

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angster -> Red Storm Rising Campaign [Scenario 4 Added For Testing] (8/14/2017 12:43:33 AM)

I did a quick search on the forum and couldn't find any Red Storm rising campaigns. The closest is Northern Inferno. I'm thinking about making a quick series with both NATO and Warsaw Pact factions. Anyone interested?

Current Scenarios Completed
1.) Operation Dreamland
2.) Polar Glory
3.) Sinking Kirov

Next Scenario In Progress
1.) Dance of the Vampires

Updated 8/24/2017
1.) Added attachment, contains first scenario

Updated 8/25/2017
1.) Small changes to scoring and briefing

Updated 9/02/2017
1.) New Scenario - Polar Glory! - Added both scenarios to attachment

Updated 9/21/2017
1.) New Scenario - Sinking Kirov - Added all scenarios to attachment

Updated 10/07/2017
1.) Updated a few scenarios, fixed some bugs
2.) Scenario 4 will be out next week

Updated 10/20/2017
1.) Small Scenario Changes
2.) New Scenario - Dance of the Vampires - Added all scenarios to attachment



Dysta -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/14/2017 12:52:22 AM)

Gunner98's Northern Fury (NF) scenario series is the closest thing you might looking for.



Primarchx -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/14/2017 3:08:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

Gunner98's Northern Fury (NF) scenario series is the closest thing you might looking for.


What he said.



Rory Noonan -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/14/2017 4:09:48 AM)

If you're proposing a WW3 in the 80's series, I'd play the hell out of it.



JPFisher55 -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/14/2017 4:05:32 PM)

I would love to play such a campaign. However, would the scenarios covering the air battle over West Germany be too big to play at any reasonable speed?



angster -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/14/2017 11:53:34 PM)

I'm thinking about using only platforms in the 70's and 80's. The cutoff range will be 1988, so no AMRAAMS. Regarding scenario size, I'm thinking about focusing on a sector of a large battle (Operation Dreamland for example).



Excroat3 -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/15/2017 5:18:29 PM)

There is at least 1 unreleased scenario depicting NATO's effort to destroy the bridges at Alfred, but I am unsure of any other scenarios set in this universe. I would definitely like to see scenarios based on Operation Dreamland, the opening strike on the Carrier group, and the F-111 strikes on Iceland.



HalfLifeExpert -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/17/2017 4:56:54 AM)

I agree Red Storm Rising scenarios would be great, but I have one question:

For Operation Dreamland, would F-117As be used? or would you use the F-19A?

The book uses the F-19, simply because the F-117A was still unknown to the public at the time.

So would you go the route of using the real aircraft that would have been used, or use the exact one from the novel?

I think both could be interesting, perhaps a companion scenario that uses the aircraft not used in the main scenario.



Primarchx -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/17/2017 1:19:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HalfLifeExpert

I agree Red Storm Rising scenarios would be great, but I have one question:

For Operation Dreamland, would F-117As be used? or would you use the F-19A?

The book uses the F-19, simply because the F-117A was still unknown to the public at the time.

So would you go the route of using the real aircraft that would have been used, or use the exact one from the novel?

I think both could be interesting, perhaps a companion scenario that uses the aircraft not used in the main scenario.


I wouldn't be RSR without the Frisbee.



1nutworld -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/17/2017 10:30:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx


quote:

ORIGINAL: HalfLifeExpert

I agree Red Storm Rising scenarios would be great, but I have one question:

For Operation Dreamland, would F-117As be used? or would you use the F-19A?

The book uses the F-19, simply because the F-117A was still unknown to the public at the time.

So would you go the route of using the real aircraft that would have been used, or use the exact one from the novel?

I think both could be interesting, perhaps a companion scenario that uses the aircraft not used in the main scenario.


I wouldn't be RSR without the Frisbee.


Maybe I am wrong, but didn't what was thought to be the F-19A ultimately become the F-117A? Obviously it would lose the "frisbee" nickname, but it would still be the type of aircraft for all intents and purposes. I seem to recall reading something about the proposed F-19A was revealed as the F-117A.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.



angster -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/17/2017 10:50:06 PM)

I will be basing aircraft types mentioned in the books. Some descriptions of Soviet aircraft are vague, so I'll just have to use some creatively license. The F-19A will definitely be in the scenarios. (How else will can I take out those Mainstays [:D])



HalfLifeExpert -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/17/2017 10:51:46 PM)

From what I understand, there never was an F-19A (although I think some aviation enthusiasts think there was/may still be a secret aircraft with that designation).

There were suspicions and rumors in the late 70s and early 80s of the US developing some kind of 'stealth fighter'. This as we now know was true, but the Pentagon of course was not saying anything. The reason for the "F-19" designation given to this rumored aircraft is the apparently unusual numbering gap between the F-18 and the F-20 Tigershark. This could be insignificant, but it is also one of the things that lend to some belief in a real F-19.

Part of the whole "F-19" thing could have been disinformation to throw attention off of the real stealth fighter, the F-117A. The depictions of the F-19A, afterall, bear little resemblance to the F-117A:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-19#/media/File:Monogram_172_F-19_Stealth_Fighter-white.jpg

https://hushkit.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/fic31.jpg (I think this one is supposed to be how it looked in RSR)

Although I must admit, the F-19 airframes look a lot cooler than the F-117.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angster

I will be basing aircraft types mentioned in the books. Some descriptions of Soviet aircraft are vague, so I'll just have to use some creatively license. The F-19A will definitely be in the scenarios. (How else will can I take out those Mainstays [:D])


Excellent, I'm not aware of any scenarios to use the F-19A





stilesw -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 12:06:55 AM)

quote:

Part of the whole "F-19" thing could have been disinformation to throw attention off of the real stealth fighter, the F-117A. The depictions of the F-19A, afterall, bear little resemblance to the F-117A:


Some basis in fact. I was on active duty at Nellis AFB 1984-1988. Just at the end of my tour there the USAF released to the public information about the "Stealth F-117". Until then it was a completely "black project" (knew of a guy who went to Leavenworth's Grey Bar hotel for talking about it too much). In 1988 MicroProse Software released its flight sim "F-19" based on the speculative information about the aircraft. When the F-117 was made public, MicroProse quickly upgraded its sim to reflect the new name and image of the aircraft.

Decision to build: 1978
IOC: 1983
64 built
59 production versions
Retired (sadly) 2008.



HalfLifeExpert -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 12:26:14 AM)

For one thing, I think a few F-117s are still flying as test beds for radar technology, and experimenting with ways to detect stealth aircraft. The rest are in storage, I think with the wings detached, presumably to prevent them being stolen [:D]

The fact that one was shot down in 1999, the wreckage captured by the Serbs, and much of it given to Russia and China, really meant that the secrets were no longer, well secret, and that, I think meant it was not going to be too long before the F-117 was retired. Plus it was first generation stealth technology, which may be somewhat obsolete now by the tech used in the F-22, F-35 and B-2 and upcoming B-21.


I am impressed that the aircraft was in service for years before being unveiled. I don't know how much the Soviets were able to find out about it before the unveiling, but if they didn't find out much, than had non nuclear war broken out between NATO and Warsaw Pact between I'd say early/mid 1984 and the Unveiling of the F-117 in 1988, the Pact would have been in for a nasty surprise and might have been one of the decisive factors of such a conflict.



Jorm -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 12:30:56 AM)

Hi Angster, sounds like fun.

have you had any thoughts on a list of possible scenarios for the campaign ?



HalfLifeExpert -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 12:36:06 AM)

Certainly the attack on the large carrier group (Nimitz, Saratoga, Foch) comes to mind.

Perhaps a simple scenario of the ASAT operations.



stilesw -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 1:49:58 AM)

Here's one of them. Affectionately know by Red Flag Staff as the "Stealth on a Stick"!

[image]local://upfiles/49187/901087B27C16481B84D419410BEC3C65.jpg[/image]



Dysta -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 2:01:31 AM)

Okay, speaking of the scenario proposal itself. Will it be a campaign, separated scenarios set, or a grand scenario (every assets and objectives happen in one scenario)?



angster -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 5:34:39 AM)

It will be similar to Chains of War campaign, which will be a set of predetermined scenario. If I can't figure out how to setup a campaign, it will be a list of separate scenarios.

Here's what I have in mind (subject to change)
1.) Operation Dreamland (NATO)
2.) Polar Glory (Soviet) - Invasion of Norway and Iceland
3.) Sinking Kirov (NATO) - Sink amphibious fleet off Norway (USS Chicago)
4.) Dance of the Vampires (Soviet) - Attack on Nimitz, Saratoga, Foch and amphibs
5.) Convoy Run (NATO) - USS Pharis, convoy stuff
6.) Nordic Hammer (Soviet) - Defend Keflavik
7.) Home Island (NATO) - Defend Britain Northern Radar Chain
8.) Battle for Alfeld (Soviet)
9.) From the Grave (NATO) - Former Nimitz Tomcats eliminates Soviet air force on Iceland
10.) Convoy Strike (Soviet) - Attack Atlantic convoys with mixture of bombers and subs
11.) Cripple the Bear (NATO) - USS Chicago, Boston, Providence attacks Soviet bomber airfields
12.) Sinking India (Soviet) - Attempt to sink HMS Illustrious
13.) Weather the Storm (NATO) - Recapture Iceland and survive Soviet bombers



Tailhook -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 6:21:55 AM)

Somewhere on my computer I have the beginnings of am Operation Doolittle scenario. I will look for it on your behald.



Grazyn -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 6:21:59 AM)

One of the first things I tried in Cmano was shooting down a satellite wìth the F15 ASAT like in the book, but I couldn't figure out how to do it, the plane never seemed to get in a good position to launch. Anyone managed to do it? Or to shoot down a satellite in general, even with ship based missiles, is it even possible?



Grazyn -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 9:11:06 AM)

I stand corrected, upon further testing the F15 does indeed launch the missile, but it seems to always run out of fuel before it can reach the satellite altitude (200 and 500 km, couldn't find satellites in lower orbits). There aren't ASAT-capable ships in the DB, not even the Lake Erie which was used in 2008 to destroy a satellite, its weapons can't target them. However, I was able to shoot down a satellite at an altitude of 800 km using the chinese land-based ASAT system (SC-19).



Primarchx -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 12:12:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grazyn

One of the first things I tried in Cmano was shooting down a satellite wìth the F15 ASAT like in the book, but I couldn't figure out how to do it, the plane never seemed to get in a good position to launch. Anyone managed to do it? Or to shoot down a satellite in general, even with ship based missiles, is it even possible?


I've done it but the geometry had to highly favorable - like use the 'm' command in the editor to move the jet into the path of the satellite favorable. [:D]



JPFisher55 -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 5:26:51 PM)

I would recommend that all scenarios be playable for either side, Soviet or Warsaw Pact.

BTW, I am pretty sure that "Red Storm Rising" was the book that revealed the existence of the F-117A. In the book, I believe that Tom Clancy called it the F-17.
The Pentagon was not happy about this disclosure. "Red Storm Rising" is the best book on a hypothetical Warsaw Pact invasion of West Germany that I have read.



Schr75 -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 6:29:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grazyn

There aren't ASAT-capable ships in the DB, not even the Lake Erie which was used in 2008 to destroy a satellite, its weapons can't target them....



Try the 2018 version with SM-3 Block IIA missiles. I think you will like it[;)]

Søren



Gunner98 -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 7:42:06 PM)

quote:

I would recommend that all scenarios be playable for either side,


Although this is a laudable goal. Building a scenario playable by both sides is more than double the time and effort. Briefings, messages, events etc take time and thought, but the big bit is making it playable, balanced and fun for both sides. Not easy and not always desirable.

Just my $.02 CAD.

B



Primarchx -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 8:13:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grazyn

...There aren't ASAT-capable ships in the DB, not even the Lake Erie which was used in 2008 to destroy a satellite, its weapons can't target them. However, I was able to shoot down a satellite at an altitude of 800 km using the chinese land-based ASAT system (SC-19).


You can always add 'prototype' SM-3s to the VLS of an older ship. I think as long as there's an AEGIS link on board they'll guide.



HalfLifeExpert -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 10:55:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55

I would recommend that all scenarios be playable for either side, Soviet or Warsaw Pact.

BTW, I am pretty sure that "Red Storm Rising" was the book that revealed the existence of the F-117A. In the book, I believe that Tom Clancy called it the F-17.
The Pentagon was not happy about this disclosure. "Red Storm Rising" is the best book on a hypothetical Warsaw Pact invasion of West Germany that I have read.



I just checked my first edition of RSR. Chapter 17 The Frisbees of Dreamland, Page 162:

"Colonel Douglas Ellington's fingertips caressed the control stick of his F-19A Ghostrider attack fighter..."

and on the next page:

"Lockheed called her the Ghostrider. The pilots called her the Frisbee. The F-19A, the secretly developed Stealth attack fighter. She had no corners, no box shapes to allow radar signals to bounce cleanly off her. Her high-bypass turbofans were designed to emit a blurry infrared signature at most. From above, her wings appeared to mimic the shape of a cathedral bell. From front, they curved oddly toward the ground, earning her the affectionate nickname of Frisbee. Though she was a masterpiece of electronic technology inside, she usually didn't use her active systems. Radar and radios made electronic noise that an enemy might detect, and the whole idea of the Frisbee was that she didn't seem to exist at all."

Other than that it is clearly labeled as F-19A, I don't see much resemblance to the F-117A. And of course the F-117A has no air to air capability, as this aircraft does. I think it can only drop iron bombs (both dumb and smart), at least in the 1980s. Afterall, in this first mission, it is going after Soviet AEW aircraft, something the F-117A cannot do. The F-19A's capabilities seem to be similar to the F-16 and F-18 in terms of firepower, minus the medium and long range AAMs.

Clancy got the aircraft's manufacturer right, but given Lockheed's previous history with the U-2 and the SR-71, it was reasonable to assume that Lockheed made the first stealth combat aircraft.

Also, reading this passage again, it seems that the F-19's DB entry in CMANO is meant to be the exact aircraft from RSR [:D]

Frankly, I think Ghostrider is a better name than Frisbee. Not least because Frisbee to me suggests a flying saucer aircraft. And since "Dreamland" is one of the nicknames for a certain location in Nevada popularly referred to as Area 51, the phrase "Frisbees of Dreamland" to me suggest reverse engineered alien spacecraft rather than a jet powered stealth fighter.

I also have a first edition of Ben Rich's book, Skunk Works: A Personal Memoir of My Years of Lockheed, and I found a couple references to the F-19 in it, in which he claims the suggestions and depiction of the F-19 were total nonsense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

quote:

I would recommend that all scenarios be playable for either side,


Although this is a laudable goal. Building a scenario playable by both sides is more than double the time and effort. Briefings, messages, events etc take time and thought, but the big bit is making it playable, balanced and fun for both sides. Not easy and not always desirable.

Just my $.02 CAD.

B


I agree with gunner. Besides, I don't think it would be alot of fun to play as the Warsaw Pact on the receiving end of Operation Dreamland [:D]



stilesw -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/18/2017 11:06:24 PM)

For inquiring minds who would like to know more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-117_Nighthawk



angster -> RE: Proposed Red Storm Rising Campaign (8/19/2017 1:21:32 AM)

Agreed, I would rather focus on a particular side then balancing from both perspective. In Dreamland, it's very hard for the AI to dodge SAM sites and patrols in a stealth fighter. The most likely scenario is that it b-lines right for your awacs.



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