Is Truk invulnerable? (Full Version)

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jwolf -> Is Truk invulnerable? (8/19/2017 10:44:03 PM)

Seriously. Bombardment fleets get torn apart by 700 guns, while inflicting casualties equal to 1 disabled squad. Not one gun ever knocked out. Fifty or so B24s at 8-10K generate absolutely ZERO casualties to the enemy; not even a stubbed toe. Granted, I can and did shut down the port and airfield, effectively neutering the base. And granted again, the sensible thing to do is to bypass it as historical. But supposing for the sake of argument that I want to take the base -- and I know it's been done in some games -- how is it possible to defang those guns? BTW my game is against the AI.



BBfanboy -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/19/2017 11:03:37 PM)

Truk can be tough once the forts are built large, but BBs can hurt the fort if they stand off far enough until the fort guns are disabled or they are out of supply.
I usually start with my BBs standing off at 18K and see how it goes. At that range Truk fort will rarely get a hit but will use lots of supply trying. I close in on subsequent bombardments by 2K intervals until the heat gets too much, then back out to the previous bombardment setting (+2K). It will take months of bombarding a couple of times a week to really suppress the fort. Keep bombing as well: fatigue becomes disruption becomes disablement becomes destroyed devices.



btd64 -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/19/2017 11:14:32 PM)

All of the above uses supply. That is the Key. But don't let any resupply get in....GP



jwolf -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/20/2017 12:18:58 AM)

I admit I haven't yet tried to micromanage the bombardments like that, but for Truk apparently I have to. Thanks for the tip. I do have Truk blockaded very thoroughly. No way anything will arrive by sea. Don't know if the AI can bring in any supply by air, or if so, a significant amount. I also don't know what they have or had by way of supply before I began seriously fighting there.



spence -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/20/2017 4:37:53 AM)

So exactly why are the Truk garrison CD guns so powerful/invulnerable? IRL the atoll wasn't invaded but a whole bunch of ships (merchies) were sunk in its harbor (Feb 44) and the base was thereafter abandoned by the IJN (actually it never functioned in any way similar to Pearl Harbor since it never had decent refueling/support facilities - given 20+ years under IJN control its reputation far exceeded its real capabilities as a base.



janh -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/20/2017 6:07:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf
I admit I haven't yet tried to micromanage the bombardments like that, but for Truk apparently I have to. Thanks for the tip. I do have Truk blockaded very thoroughly. No way anything will arrive by sea. Don't know if the AI can bring in any supply by air, or if so, a significant amount. I also don't know what they have or had by way of supply before I began seriously fighting there.


If there is plenty of AAA, you can further drain supply but air raids (high altitude).

Regarding supply: Which difficulty level are you playing?

HISTORICAL: AI needs to bring supply in physically.

>= HARD: AI gets free supply without need to deliver. It is not a bonus on any shipment coming through, really (this would be a neat option for AI games in the future because it would make blockading still viable) but spawning at the bases.



crsutton -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/20/2017 6:10:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

So exactly why are the Truk garrison CD guns so powerful/invulnerable? IRL the atoll wasn't invaded but a whole bunch of ships (merchies) were sunk in its harbor (Feb 44) and the base was thereafter abandoned by the IJN (actually it never functioned in any way similar to Pearl Harbor since it never had decent refueling/support facilities - given 20+ years under IJN control its reputation far exceeded its real capabilities as a base.


Well, they did have quite a few CD guns which is probably why the Allies decided not to fool with it. You can't compare in game because the Japanese really did not pour a whole lot into Truk's defenses whereas any Japanese player can and probably will. I have never tried to take it. Just like in real life, it is not that important.



geofflambert -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/20/2017 7:26:41 PM)

Eniwetok served the US purposes better than Truk ever could have, at a small fraction of the cost.



jwolf -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/20/2017 7:36:00 PM)

My game vs the AI is at hard difficulty.



Alpha77 -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 9:48:45 AM)

Which terrain does Truk have ? I noted that a certain terrain bonus plus good forts (5+) protect troops quite good vs. air and bombardement..the air fields and port can be hit hard, but the troops...(?). I noted the same at Lunga (fort4) the US pounds us there for quite a while but our troops are in ok shape (while all the airfields at GD are in ruins). If you play hard which gives the AI also supply bonus such places might be hard to take...



zuluhour -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 11:39:40 AM)

I believe George took Truk and could be coerced into a method.....maybe



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 1:30:59 PM)

Yes



Truly Yours

Toho Hideki



geofflambert -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 2:17:13 PM)

Gräfin, where have you been? I've missed you terribly.



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 2:39:50 PM)

I come and go since like 7 years now ? ^^


You have to thank the Indianapolis for my sudden return. Its recent discovery triggered me.



witpqs -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 3:35:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I believe George took Truk and could be coerced into a method.....maybe

I took Truk but it was a major learning experience and so the elements must be analyzed not replicated as a method. I tried to rotate units out as they were battered beyond helpfulness, and while that was helpful it had limits. I would say over stack to at least 200% maybe a little more for the opening attacks and just have PLENTY of supply on hand (= on ships only landing as much as needed each day) to compensate. Daily aerial and naval bombardment matter much to both have direct effects and reduce the defenders' supply stockpiles. Plus of course the standard amphibious assault advice all is inculded.



witpqs -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 3:36:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

I come and go since like 7 years now ? ^^


You have to thank the Indianapolis for my sudden return. Its recent discovery triggered me.

Howdy! [:)]



Lokasenna -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 3:37:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Truk can be tough once the forts are built large, but BBs can hurt the fort if they stand off far enough until the fort guns are disabled or they are out of supply.
I usually start with my BBs standing off at 18K and see how it goes. At that range Truk fort will rarely get a hit but will use lots of supply trying. I close in on subsequent bombardments by 2K intervals until the heat gets too much, then back out to the previous bombardment setting (+2K). It will take months of bombarding a couple of times a week to really suppress the fort. Keep bombing as well: fatigue becomes disruption becomes disablement becomes destroyed devices.


You don't even need to do this process.

Just look up the ranges of the guns that are at Truk. Order your ships to bombard from outside the range of the most numerous smallest caliber CD gun.

Although honestly, I mostly just set to 5K standoff and call it good. Works just fine. I haven't bombarded Truk that way, but I have done so to other heavily fortified bases (Saipan, for one, which has a similar coastal defense unit).



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 3:44:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

I come and go since like 7 years now ? ^^


You have to thank the Indianapolis for my sudden return. Its recent discovery triggered me.

Howdy! [:)]

[:)]



witpqs -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 3:57:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Truk can be tough once the forts are built large, but BBs can hurt the fort if they stand off far enough until the fort guns are disabled or they are out of supply.
I usually start with my BBs standing off at 18K and see how it goes. At that range Truk fort will rarely get a hit but will use lots of supply trying. I close in on subsequent bombardments by 2K intervals until the heat gets too much, then back out to the previous bombardment setting (+2K). It will take months of bombarding a couple of times a week to really suppress the fort. Keep bombing as well: fatigue becomes disruption becomes disablement becomes destroyed devices.


You don't even need to do this process.

Just look up the ranges of the guns that are at Truk. Order your ships to bombard from outside the range of the most numerous smallest caliber CD gun.

Although honestly, I mostly just set to 5K standoff and call it good. Works just fine. I haven't bombarded Truk that way, but I have done so to other heavily fortified bases (Saipan, for one, which has a similar coastal defense unit).

Some targets are nasty porcupines and as I recall Truk is one of those. Better to start farther out.



BBfanboy -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 4:16:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Truk can be tough once the forts are built large, but BBs can hurt the fort if they stand off far enough until the fort guns are disabled or they are out of supply.
I usually start with my BBs standing off at 18K and see how it goes. At that range Truk fort will rarely get a hit but will use lots of supply trying. I close in on subsequent bombardments by 2K intervals until the heat gets too much, then back out to the previous bombardment setting (+2K). It will take months of bombarding a couple of times a week to really suppress the fort. Keep bombing as well: fatigue becomes disruption becomes disablement becomes destroyed devices.


You don't even need to do this process.

Just look up the ranges of the guns that are at Truk. Order your ships to bombard from outside the range of the most numerous smallest caliber CD gun.

Although honestly, I mostly just set to 5K standoff and call it good. Works just fine. I haven't bombarded Truk that way, but I have done so to other heavily fortified bases (Saipan, for one, which has a similar coastal defense unit).

Some targets are nasty porcupines and as I recall Truk is one of those. Better to start farther out.

I tried closing in to get more effective bombardment and while it did cause the enemy more hurt, it laid a lot of system damage on my BBs --- and the nearest shipyard that could handle them was Sydney. Yeah, you can repair system damage anywhere but a shipyard seems to get it done much faster than the low-level ports available in the Solomons area. BBs just take so dang long to repair even minor damage.



Lokasenna -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 5:39:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Truk can be tough once the forts are built large, but BBs can hurt the fort if they stand off far enough until the fort guns are disabled or they are out of supply.
I usually start with my BBs standing off at 18K and see how it goes. At that range Truk fort will rarely get a hit but will use lots of supply trying. I close in on subsequent bombardments by 2K intervals until the heat gets too much, then back out to the previous bombardment setting (+2K). It will take months of bombarding a couple of times a week to really suppress the fort. Keep bombing as well: fatigue becomes disruption becomes disablement becomes destroyed devices.


You don't even need to do this process.

Just look up the ranges of the guns that are at Truk. Order your ships to bombard from outside the range of the most numerous smallest caliber CD gun.

Although honestly, I mostly just set to 5K standoff and call it good. Works just fine. I haven't bombarded Truk that way, but I have done so to other heavily fortified bases (Saipan, for one, which has a similar coastal defense unit).

Some targets are nasty porcupines and as I recall Truk is one of those. Better to start farther out.


I guess I'm just not a fan of wasting time [;)].



jwolf -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 6:41:49 PM)

Wasting time isn't so bad -- ships, on the other hand, are a different matter. And I wouldn't mind all the banged up ships so much, except that in return the defenders at Truk are taking just about no losses at all. Shells of caliber 14 and 16 inches do ... pretty much nothing.



MakeeLearn -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 7:00:50 PM)

Welcome...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNTjp3Y1_QE

[image]local://upfiles/55056/95D938833BB94251BC16A43D3AAD2D69.jpg[/image]



geofflambert -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 7:25:51 PM)

Careful MakeePorn.



Zorch -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 8:30:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Careful MakeePorn.

Porn is in the eye of the (whatever). [;)]



rustysi -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 8:52:38 PM)

quote:

Is Truk invulnerable?


Short answer, no, but why bother.



Lokasenna -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 9:08:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Wasting time isn't so bad -- ships, on the other hand, are a different matter. And I wouldn't mind all the banged up ships so much, except that in return the defenders at Truk are taking just about no losses at all. Shells of caliber 14 and 16 inches do ... pretty much nothing.


This is not my experience, though of course it could be possible that even with high DL and spotter planes a bombardment might do nothing. It's worth noting that when a bombardment TF bombards, it is not really explicitly targeting the coastal defense units or even the defending LCUs at Truk itself - it is bombarding the base. Sometimes, ships will fire at specific units at the base. But not always.

If the goal is to engage the CD guns, then (perhaps unfortunately) you should try unloading via amphibious TF - that will dedicate all of the "bombardment" to counter-battery fire, which should take care of more guns. I can think of a way to "abuse" this mechanic with faux-amphibious forces - but really, I'd just think of it as an abstraction for targeting the defensive guns instead of the base with a bombardment. Just trickier to pull off.



rustysi -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 9:28:54 PM)

quote:

If the goal is to engage the CD guns, then (perhaps unfortunately) you should try unloading via amphibious TF


I think an air bombardment with the port as a target will accomplish this as well.



Lokasenna -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/21/2017 10:38:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

If the goal is to engage the CD guns, then (perhaps unfortunately) you should try unloading via amphibious TF


I think an air bombardment with the port as a target will accomplish this as well.


Not very well, but it can happen.



BBfanboy -> RE: Is Truk invulnerable? (8/22/2017 3:14:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Wasting time isn't so bad -- ships, on the other hand, are a different matter. And I wouldn't mind all the banged up ships so much, except that in return the defenders at Truk are taking just about no losses at all. Shells of caliber 14 and 16 inches do ... pretty much nothing.


This is not my experience, though of course it could be possible that even with high DL and spotter planes a bombardment might do nothing. It's worth noting that when a bombardment TF bombards, it is not really explicitly targeting the coastal defense units or even the defending LCUs at Truk itself - it is bombarding the base. Sometimes, ships will fire at specific units at the base. But not always.

If the goal is to engage the CD guns, then (perhaps unfortunately) you should try unloading via amphibious TF - that will dedicate all of the "bombardment" to counter-battery fire, which should take care of more guns. I can think of a way to "abuse" this mechanic with faux-amphibious forces - but really, I'd just think of it as an abstraction for targeting the defensive guns instead of the base with a bombardment. Just trickier to pull off.

I have played sandbox (both sides) on this and can tell you that the combat reports do not say enough. You think nothing is happening but the disruption and fatigue buildup is there, waiting to be battered into disablements and destruction. If you want to erode an tough defence you have to act like the sea and keep battering away.



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