RE: German supply (Full Version)

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Nix77 -> RE: German supply (9/16/2017 9:12:48 AM)

I guess this guy knows what he's saying, and he doesn't talk that much about trucks waltzing through the Soviet Russia on paved roads:

http://www.allworldwars.com/Comments-on-Russian-Roads-and-Higways-by-Max-Bork.html

quote:

B. Highways
1. Background of the Existing Highway Net
In 1941 European Russia did not have a highway net comparable to those in western European countries. The few roads which existed had only a limited capacity and apparently had not undergone any appreciable change in construction or lay-out during the past 100 year3, a condition due primarily to the relatively small demands of peacetime traffic. There were two types of roads:
a. the long, straight thoroughfares intended for commercial and military traffic, which usually followed the valleys of the larger rivers and connected cultural and industrial areas;
b. the unimproved roads which had developed through constant use of the same route connecting small settlements with nearby fields and forests,
2. Condition and Capacity of Roads
In contrast to the former Baltic States, where paved roads were common, the roads in European Russia had paved or asphalt surfacing only in and near large cities and industrial centers. The only road which had been bui1t according to western European standards and which was given constant maintenance was the Minsk - Moscow highway. The Germans designated this highway as Army Group Canter's "Rollbahn.”
The terms "Trakte" or "Greter" were used to refer to those through roads which cut straight across country and were often more than 100 yards wide. In summer these roads were extremely dusty. After a rain or thaw they became so mired that they could not be used by wheeled vehicles. Deep gullies cutting across these roads were particularly troublesome. Attempts to overcome the effects of weather by digging drainage ditches or by rolling were of little help because the roads did not have a hard top.
In an effort to overcome mud and snow the Germans often improvised wooden or ice roads. Wooden roads were constructed by laying down ribbons of planks spaced the width of the vehicular tread. Ice roads made use of frozen bodies of water or were fashioned by pouring water over deep snow. The use of corduroy roads and the tremendous amount of labor needed to construct them will be described later in this study.




morvael -> RE: German supply (9/16/2017 9:29:02 AM)

Yes, I think chuckles imagines western standards because he cannot think otherwise. Take into account also the ground type (clay or similar) which turns to heavy mud even after a single day of rain and deforms heavily under vehicles. I have a map of road network of Poland in 1939, you'd be surprised how little roads were of then modern standard.




morvael -> RE: German supply (9/16/2017 9:33:05 AM)

Now that I have checked terminology, I can say that you have to consider that most roads were dirt roads, not paved roads.




EwaldvonKleist -> RE: German supply (9/16/2017 3:12:30 PM)

@chuckles
1) Trucks in 1941 cannot be compared to modern trucks in terms of load capacity, reliability, driver exhaustion, fuel consumption etc.
2) The Soviet union had a very low standard in terms of motorization (cars and trucks), especially considering its size. Instead, it relied on its railway. Therefore, roads had no priority and were at a low standard
3) The Germans had a severe lack of spare parts and tyres. Especially tyres had a very high attrition on the bad russian roads. THerefore, not all vehicles were repaired, and cannibalization started.
4) A summer rain has often been enough to make the bad roads even worse, dividing the capacity of the truck fleet by 2 or three or 100.
5) The roads were not only regularly blocked by soviet troops, but also by the infantry divisions following the motorized spearheads.
6) When the trucks weren't the bottleneck, the railway made up for this.
7) All together, this are enough issues to justify that units have to pause operations for resupply given the scale of WitE.

I could easily name more difficulties for the German supply system, but this should be enough to make a point.




chuckfourth -> RE: German supply (9/22/2017 12:51:28 AM)

Ok thanks for your contribution EwaldvonKleist. I am not saying there is no supply problems, I am saying that in the game German fuel consumption is way too high.

Ok so no answer to my question the first time, so I will repeat it.
Using Opel Blitz as a Generic truck.
Creveldt says fuel for 100 German miles only buys you 70 Russian miles. This equates to a fuel consumption rate of 43L/100kms in Russia from a base of 30L/100kms in Germany.
This takes into account the poor state of Russian roads OK I accept this.

However In the game Creveldt's consumption is multiplied by the cross country fuel consumption rate to give 57L/100kms
Why is Creveldt's ratio multiplied by the cross country rate?
Why does the game think Creveldt's numbers are wrong?




Nix77 -> RE: German supply (9/22/2017 6:14:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles

Ok thanks for your contribution EwaldvonKleist. I am not saying there is no supply problems, I am saying that in the game German fuel consumption is way too high.


What's the German fuel consumption currently in the game, can't seem to find a value for that anywhere?

The game isn't modelling currently single trucks (maybe that's in WitE 2, with the drivers included!), but making wide generalizations all across the board to make the game enjoyable but yet as realistic as it can be. I don't care how many liters of fuel Opel Blitz consumes in the game, as long as it makes the German advance feel almost historically accurate.

Do you feel the germans are advancing too slowly? In theory you can drive to Moscow in three weeks currently in the game, but there's this small friction called the Red Army in between, that's why we can't just look at the Wikipedia fuel consumption directly. Things need to be modeled differently in games. You could have the Blitz consume the exact correct amount and model the truck wear & tear completely realistically, but you still would need to have some external multipliers to all these values to make the game engine to "push the game" to the correct balanced direction.




morvael -> RE: German supply (9/22/2017 7:08:32 AM)

Fuel consumption is not a problem, both sides actually swim in excess fuel (just see global pools). However, we can't introduce fuel shortages in this supply system, because there is no prioritisation, so every unit would have the same % of fuel or (in case some of my improvements don't work) some units would have zero fuel, and others full amount. Fuel shortages can be only properly simulated with WitW/WitE2 logistics system, when there is prioritisation of depots/units, so players have a say where to route precious fuel. WitE1 simulates only shortages at unit level, when the railhead-HQ-unit supply chain is too long.




chuckfourth -> RE: German supply (9/22/2017 8:32:34 AM)

That is where you are exactly wrong Nix77. This game is the only game detailed enough so that you can actually dispense completely with the external multipliers if only you get the detail right.




morvael -> RE: German supply (9/22/2017 8:55:56 AM)

Unfortunately (?) the game will never simulate every single component of every mechanical and organic entity that could have an impact on war. There are no "our Lieutenant had a hangover so he missed vital signs of enemy attack" or "the bomb we dropped hit, but the fuse was damaged by slave factory workers and it did not explode" or "we stole the food from those Russian peasants, but it was spoiled and we were ill for a week" stories to be simulated by the game. It will be always imperfect. There is an article which is partially related to this issue, though it mostly focuses on chance, and what it simulates. But similar things can be said of modifiers/multipliers that may sound artificial but they exist to achieve similar effect without having to simulate every single blood cell in every single soldier, or every single weld in every single machine (which do have impact on final result).




Nix77 -> RE: German supply (9/22/2017 9:10:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Unfortunately (?) the game will never simulate every single component of every mechanical and organic entity that could have an impact on war. There are no "our Lieutenant had a hangover so he missed vital signs of enemy attack" or "the bomb we dropped hit, but the fuse was damaged by slave factory workers and it did not explode" or "we stole the food from those Russian peasants, but it was spoiled and we were ill for a week" stories to be simulated by the game. It will be always imperfect. There is an article which is partially related to this issue, though it mostly focuses on chance, and what it simulates. But similar things can be said of modifiers/multipliers that may sound artificial but they exist to achieve similar effect without having to simulate every single blood cell in every single soldier, or every single weld in every single machine (which do have impact on final result).



Someone really should start coding the Dwarf Fortress of strategy gaming to please Chuckles' desire for detail!

Don't get me wrong, Chuckles, I'm really a fan of extreme detail in computer games and in my opinion ALL games should have more of it! But almost always details and accuracy have to be sacrificed for the sake of time, resources and playability. That's just the cruel fact. How this sacrifice is executed is a major factor in how the game feels and plays, and I think WitE does that currently quite well.


PS. Wait a second, did I just say WitE is lacking in details? Never thought I'd say that... :D




morvael -> RE: German supply (9/22/2017 9:25:06 AM)

WitE lacks a lot of detail in certain aspects, some of this on purpose even, "to keep the board game feel". I think many of those are rectified in WitW/WitE2, of which the logistics and air system overhauls are the most important.




chuckfourth -> RE: German supply (9/26/2017 2:03:05 AM)

Creveldt gives the ratio, 100 German kilometers gives 70 Russian kilometers.
In the game 100 German kilometers gives 43 Russian Kilometers.
The game is wrong.
It matters.

So, Here they are again,
Why is Creveldt's ratio multiplied by the cross country rate?
Why does the game think Creveldt's numbers are wrong?




Nix77 -> RE: German supply (9/26/2017 6:28:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles

Creveldt gives the ratio, 100 German kilometers gives 70 Russian kilometers.
In the game 100 German kilometers gives 43 Russian Kilometers.
The game is wrong.
It matters.

So, Here they are again,
Why is Creveldt's ratio multiplied by the cross country rate?
Why does the game think Creveldt's numbers are wrong?


Because Creveldt's numbers have nothing to do with strategy games. It's a game we're talking about here.




Stelteck -> RE: German supply (9/26/2017 6:53:41 AM)

Yes. Too many wargames fail because they think too much about hardcore recreation of history (which is often impossible) and not enough about gameplay & ease of use & fun.




morvael -> RE: German supply (9/26/2017 7:08:06 AM)

chuckles, somehow you don't argue about infinite capacity railways in WitE, that can transport billions of tons of cargo on a single line. [:)] Given the constrains (base design, which can't be easily replaced) the system must produce semi-realistic results. Sometimes this is done by following historical data, sometimes it's just a heavy handed multiplier or modifier that is applied globally to achieve the goal of slowing down the attacking side, despite being only a poor approximation of several real-life issues.




chuckfourth -> RE: German supply (9/28/2017 5:56:56 AM)

Thank you for your response Morvael, this is still not really a clear answer however. As far as rail goes we can discuss that later, You cannot eat a whale in one bite.
I cant really proceed until you state clearly that the German truck fuel consumption is purposely increased to unreal levels to adjust play balance. If you don't then some fool will just keep on saying 57L/100kms is correct and true in another post or two and so the circle will continue.




morvael -> RE: German supply (9/28/2017 6:11:29 AM)

Fuel consumption is not something that I look at, knowing I can't create shortages because the system will break down and all sides swim in fuel.




morvael -> RE: German supply (9/28/2017 6:12:08 AM)

All I care for is semi-realistic maximum supply distance from working railhead.




PhaetonScipio -> RE: German supply (9/28/2017 11:19:16 AM)

Hi, new user here. I registered for this thread.
I worked in road construction. If anything, there should be more truck attrition. Even a modern truck column will suffer daily attrition on such roads. We are talking about percentages* within the double digits. WiTE is a generous model (too generous). It is on the right track. That is all I can say. Sorry, I will not mention details. Call your local company/government (depending on your country) for such numbers and look at the logistical WW2 truck columns. The developers are right on this issue when it comes to driving WW2 truck columns on Soviet roads in 1941. The quality of those roads are horrendous even if they had asphalt.




chuckfourth -> RE: German supply (9/30/2017 9:53:41 PM)

Ok I am off for another few years. As far as I can tell the game remains in the hands of the Russian care bares.
I would make one last point.
If you have a "fact" it should be incorporated into the game as it is i.e. creveldt's 100 to 70 ratio. You should then change other unknown factors to get the right play balance, say attrition rate, total number of trucks. In that way you will arrive at the truth. Ignoring facts because "playbalance" is dishonest
Good luck to anyone that would like an authentic game.




Stelteck -> RE: German supply (9/30/2017 10:02:53 PM)

This thread is really strange.




EwaldvonKleist -> RE: German supply (9/30/2017 10:27:50 PM)

+1




tyronec -> RE: German supply (9/30/2017 10:49:59 PM)

morvael, your patience is commendable !




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: German supply (10/1/2017 1:38:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

This thread is really strange.




Maybe it was really "Creveld Syndrome"....... lol


OR


Even using Martin Van Creveld saying, "The problem is that you cannot prove yourself against someone who is much weaker than yourself"


I couldn't resist :-)




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: German supply (10/1/2017 1:40:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

This thread is really strange.




Maybe it was really "Creveld Syndrome"....... lol


OR


Even using Martin Van Creveld saying, "The problem is that you cannot prove yourself against someone who is much weaker than yourself"


I couldn't resist :-)


This is not directed at you Stelteck, just going down the rabbit hole makijng it more weird :)




Stelteck -> RE: German supply (10/1/2017 6:19:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

This is not directed at you Stelteck, just going down the rabbit hole makijng it more weird :)


[;)]




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