RE: Notes from a Small Island (Full Version)

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Lokasenna -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/17/2019 11:44:51 PM)

Interesting. I'm interested to see your post-op reasonings and evaluation of whether it was worth it.



Canoerebel -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 12:32:39 AM)

I recollect your strong prediction that China wasn't the objective. I figure you have reasons that you think other potential targets were better. Let's see how it plays out.



adarbrauner -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 4:43:27 AM)

Shanghai area is a very good objective; super important and valuable locations (which by themselves provide important industrial resources); potential cut off of all the inner China theater and activation of the Chinese; it's already enough, because there's more.



JeffroK -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 5:48:47 AM)

Shanghai itself may be a big rock to crack, but using the ability to move up river and land at, probably, poorly defended bases might be a major coup.

The bases on the east bank can be built up to L8-9 and make a very solid base for further ventures.

After I made a call for Shanghai I had a look at the map, and IMVHO, decided you dont want a target adjaecent to another base (or one you cant capture quickly) The adjaecent base allows a quick reaction by rail and could limit your expansion. Some of the Chinese ports between Shanghai & Hong Kong are almost from inland China and the best LOC is by sea.

It will be very interesting to see how CR's adventure prospers.



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 7:04:21 AM)

Very interesting and best of luck. How big are the Nanking and Shanghai garrisons (if you've done any recon)?

Cheers,
CB



Canoerebel -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 1:11:06 PM)

Shanghai has about 35k and Nanking about 10k.

This thing caught Erik weighted towards various fronts and perceived threat vectors. He had a massive army in Burma (when this got underway) and on Hokkaido. He's shifting to meet the threat and will have a big army in place before I can do anything sexy as far as conquering an entire country or vast real estate. But the objectives of this operation allowed for that and in fact viewed that as desirable. I'll go into that later.

At the moment, Erik has 10,000 AV in Indochina sprinting to come up here and an army somewhere near that large in the process of shifting from Hokkaido to Korea to China by rail. I think he's already gotten a lot of units into Korea.

He also has an army between Bangkok and Singapore that's kind of pocketed and in bad shape. He's reinforcing Singapore - up to 30k from 20k, and more on the way - but I think several divisions will end up isolated and threatened with destruction. For reasons I'll explain later today, destroying enemy units is a chief objective of this. That and unhinging his MLR so that he'd have to retreat in a bit of panic, thus leaving him in the open and outside big fortifications.



Canoerebel -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 3:06:12 PM)

5/10/45

TNNBT: The invasion of China begins, with no enemy opposition to speak of. A few "pathfinder" units came sprinting in to Tungchow, unloading detachments. Their main objective was to see if Erik had combat ships set to bushwhack. He didn't, at least on this day. Additional Allied ships went further upstream, reporting no opposition or detection.

No enemy combat vessels or aircraft sortied, which came as a surprise. That should change tomorrow.

Tomorrow, DS will remain stationary, blocking the river mouth while the main invasion force comes ashore. It's not uber (one USA division and a Dutch brigade, with a few supporting units). That should be more than sufficient to take the base, barring enemy ships preventing the landings. If successful, the landing of the army will commence the day after.

Tomorrow, an APD TF will scoot upstream and land a detachment of parachutes on the main rail line leading from Shanghai/Nanking inland.

I've deployed combat TFs and subs in an arc to the seaward side of DS & The Herd, for obvious reasons. A few TFs are up the river, at and past Tungchow.

Tomorrow, PBYs from Kume will patrol at distance. I'm hoping to get a quick peek at enemy naval dispositions without triggering a reaction that would prove fatal. Under the current alignment of Allied TFs, I don't think a one-turn, two-hex reaction would prove fatal. Maybe.


[image]local://upfiles/8143/3F235D5AA3B2409B8CFFBF2116468441.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 3:19:17 PM)

5/10/45

SEAC: A good day here, too, as RN DS strikes enemy shipping around Singers. Allied troops are pouring into Georgetown and fanning out to isolate the lower peninsula from the upper.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/13CBFDDB163A475F8CE766073ACFA4E1.jpg[/image]



JohnDillworth -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 3:22:33 PM)

One huge bonus of the current operation is the the door to the southern resources zones is pretty much closed. That is the beginning of the end for the Japanese economy. If I were your opponent I would be looking to sneak resources in via the east cost of Japan while all your forces are occupied elsewhere. I expect Japan has excellent stockpiles.....but there will be no more deposits.....only withdraws



Canoerebel -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 3:43:35 PM)

5/10/45

Points: What it's gonna take to win this war (sometime, eventually) and why TNNBT offered so many advantages over other possible targets.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/20B1B50D017E410BA9810E1CB767686A.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 3:46:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

One huge bonus of the current operation is the the door to the southern resources zones is pretty much closed. That is the beginning of the end for the Japanese economy. If I were your opponent I would be looking to sneak resources in via the east cost of Japan while all your forces are occupied elsewhere. I expect Japan has excellent stockpiles.....but there will be no more deposits.....only withdraws


he's routing TFs through the eastern Philippines Sea, even as we speak. Allied subs have claimed a few victims. I have a CL/DD TF lurking. But for a week or two, I'll have my hands full. DS must handle things in the East China Sea. Once Allied airfields are operational and capable of handling local defense, DS & The Herd of Empties will conceivable move out - the Empties possibly going to the South China Sea to work with RN DS towards campaigns into the Philippines, Java, etc.

DS would then be free to impose a blockade on Japan.





JohnDillworth -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 4:00:53 PM)

I expect you have a couple of CVE's that have arrived stateside and did not make it to the big show. Why not make up a small task force and go ship hunting. As you mentioned a small surface combat task force might keep him honest. He can't really escort his convoys with good warships or proper air defense



adarbrauner -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 4:04:52 PM)

Check please, if you can, whether your TFs sailing upriver received any damage;

El Cid sustains that riverine shore shelling of ships does take place, but for any reason no animation is shown; and your ship should have attracted some shelling from Shanghai and Nanking (whether they have been hit or not is another matter); they may have counter fired as well, so maybe check also their ammo if possible?



Canoerebel -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 4:39:55 PM)

Wouldn't you give DS secuirty the highest priority? The latest CVEs sprinted and managed to catch up to DS near Chichi Jima about ten days ago. Until TNNBT is secure, and until DS weathers the Divine Wind, all carriers are needed there. Once things settle down a bit, I can begin attending to other important (but not as important) matters.





Canoerebel -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 4:41:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Check please, if you can, whether your TFs sailing upriver received any damage;

El Cid sustains that riverine shore shelling of ships does take place, but for any reason no animation is shown; and your ship should have attracted some shelling from Shanghai and Nanking (whether they have been hit or not is another matter); they may have counter fired as well, so maybe check also their ammo if possible?


None of the TFs incurred any damage, as best I can tell. The TFs at Tungchow expended ammo in landing troops, so I can't tell if they also expended any during the river transit.

The TFs up at Nanking and above also have expended some ammo. I think that happened during the river journey, because they would have replenished by AE the day before.



JohnDillworth -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 5:22:51 PM)

quote:

Wouldn't you give DS secuirty the highest priority?

Of course but a couple of CVE's are probably about 1% of the Great Blue Fleets mass. While not negligible to the death star shutting down the Japanese ability to ship in resources is not small potatoes either. Kind of a cost / benefit thing



Canoerebel -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 5:44:19 PM)

I hear what you're saying, but no CVE detached from DS would survive a single day's journey eastward. (You were suggesting CVEs from West Coast, but every CVE in the Pacific is with DS.)

The CVEs are crucial to what's about to happen. They burn up easily, as we all know. So absorbing Erik's second and third (and fourth and fifth?) attacks will be crucial to surviving the onslaught. I'm gonna lose a bunch of CVEs, I suspect, so I wanted every deck possible and managed to get the last two in by the skin of my teeth.

But RN DS has grown large and is about to grow considerably larger (a bunch of RN CVEs arrive soon). That force should afford more flexibility in the not-too-distant future.



Lokasenna -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 6:00:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Shanghai has about 35k and Nanking about 10k.

This thing caught Erik weighted towards various fronts and perceived threat vectors. He had a massive army in Burma (when this got underway) and on Hokkaido. He's shifting to meet the threat and will have a big army in place before I can do anything sexy as far as conquering an entire country or vast real estate. But the objectives of this operation allowed for that and in fact viewed that as desirable. I'll go into that later.

At the moment, Erik has 10,000 AV in Indochina sprinting to come up here and an army somewhere near that large in the process of shifting from Hokkaido to Korea to China by rail. I think he's already gotten a lot of units into Korea.

He also has an army between Bangkok and Singapore that's kind of pocketed and in bad shape. He's reinforcing Singapore - up to 30k from 20k, and more on the way - but I think several divisions will end up isolated and threatened with destruction. For reasons I'll explain later today, destroying enemy units is a chief objective of this. That and unhinging his MLR so that he'd have to retreat in a bit of panic, thus leaving him in the open and outside big fortifications.


Just a point of information that the garrison requirement for Shanghai is 720, and for Nanking I think it is 260 or 320.

Nanking starts (and I see no reason why he would have changed it) with a garrison of roughly what it needs, and they're almost all crappy troops. "Police brigades" and the like.



Lokasenna -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 6:01:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Check please, if you can, whether your TFs sailing upriver received any damage;

El Cid sustains that riverine shore shelling of ships does take place, but for any reason no animation is shown; and your ship should have attracted some shelling from Shanghai and Nanking (whether they have been hit or not is another matter); they may have counter fired as well, so maybe check also their ammo if possible?


If it occurs, you would at least see a message like "Naval gun fire at Tsushima!" and then, even though you don't "see" a combat, you can find it in the combat report the next day.



BBfanboy -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/18/2019 6:01:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Check please, if you can, whether your TFs sailing upriver received any damage;

El Cid sustains that riverine shore shelling of ships does take place, but for any reason no animation is shown; and your ship should have attracted some shelling from Shanghai and Nanking (whether they have been hit or not is another matter); they may have counter fired as well, so maybe check also their ammo if possible?

The Yangtze River does not flow through Shanghai on the game map, so the Allied ships avoid any defences at that city. In stock, there is no fortress at Shanghai at game start but the BF there does have some DP guns. No forts or CD units at Nanking either at game start and the BF there did NOT have DP guns, but a lot can change by 1945.
Ammo expenditure by ships going upriver could have been against CD units, any unit with DP guns or search/recon aircraft.



RangerJoe -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/19/2019 1:33:58 AM)

I think that there might be a tax police unit at Shanghai, please overkill it!

If he tries to contest your units in the open ground in NE China, your 1E and 2E bombers should be able to severely hamper them if his fighters are busy elsewhere. It is also nice ground for your cavalry and tanks.

A very nice target area and invasion. I think that the move to Iriomote may have led him to think that you were going to Formosa and/or northern Luzon.



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/19/2019 2:39:17 AM)

I always liked the Electrical Engineer Regiment. I envision a mass of troops in white shirt-sleeves with pocket protectors, slide rules and thick glasses.

Cheers,
CB



Canoerebel -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/19/2019 3:07:37 AM)

Erik sent vague (very vague) word that he'd encountered some major glitch when trying to run the turn. He didn't say what the glitch was or hint in any way about it's nature. He only said it wasn't user error.

May I just say right here that it seems that we men are, as our women tell us, atrocious at communicating?

I suspect this is the issue- I bet Erik set his air force to strike and it hasn't, either day. If that's the case, it might be weather. He's already flown one mega-strike and lots of smaller strikes against Death Star. So I don't know of there being any organic issues.

Of course, that's sheer speculation. But that's all I can do - speculate - given lack of information.



RangerJoe -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/19/2019 3:28:57 AM)

quote:

. . . May I just say right here that it seems that we men are, as our women tell us, atrocious at communicating?




Wife to husband: "Do you love me?"

Husband: "Of course I do."

Wife: "You don't say so!"

Husband: "Yes, I did!"

Wife: "Once, twenty years ago!"

Husband: "If something had changed, I would have told you!"



Lecivius -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/19/2019 1:16:39 PM)

Wife to husband: "Do you love me?"

Husband: "huh?" <nods blankly while watching the game>



adarbrauner -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/19/2019 1:53:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Wife to husband: "Do you love me?"

Husband: "huh?" <nods blankly while watching the game>


I have far worst anecdots, real life first hand, to refer onthe subject...



Blessed the day the main PC broke out (thus putting a momentarily end to game addiction). this saved my life, and wedding - meanwhile.



Canoerebel -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/19/2019 3:35:59 PM)

Erik has requested a partial do-over due to an Allied landing really messing up some units he had in Strat mode. It kicked them into Move mode, far from the nearest base, so that it'll take him a long time to get them to someplace relevant.

I don't think a do-over is warranted, but I've agreed to it because Erik is a good man and wouldn't ask if he didn't feel strongly. Fortunately, I had an end-of-turn save, so all I had to do was stand down the APD TF that landed troops on his rail line across the Yangtze. I've already sent him the revised turn.

I sent him this email with my thoughts on the matter:

Erik,

I plan to re-issue the order to the APD TF and nothing else. I’ll do so when I get the file. That should be in less than an hour, so you’ll have the turn shortly thereafter.

Consider this and discuss in your AAR:

I am assuming that you have all kinds of troops strategically positioned in Strat Mode to respond at a moment’s notice to emergencies in distant places. You triggered those emergency movements, planning to move those units to the point of invasion rapidly. You could have set transport to closer, less vulnerable bases but aimed instead for maximum speed and efficiency (or just got lazy and set them for Shanghai). You knew this feature of the game, having recently (on Hokkaido) experienced it on a smaller scale. Your plan got messed up by an (apparently) unexpected but nevertheless predictable Allied landing. So instead of you being able to rail divisions (maybe many) to the scene quickly, now you’re caught in a bind with units auto-switched to Move mode far away from the closest base. It’s gonna slow you down rather than speeding things up. Your plan was a good one but blew up on you.

If you set up an elaborate, crafty defense and had that spoiled by a known feature of the game because you didn’t anticipate an Allied move….is it fair to re-do the move?

That’s a tough question but one worth discussion amongst you and your readers. Is this really a do-over situation or a tough lesson?

In any event, let’s do it over. I’ll send the modified turn in a little while (I’ll have to check to make sure that end-of-turn save truly was end of turn, that I didn’t add a few clicks just before sending that I might otherwise overlook now, though I can’t remember exactly what I did).

Dan



JohnDillworth -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/19/2019 3:46:59 PM)

Your email was exactly on point. You are being way more than fair. Up to your opponent as to letting the turn stand as is or accept , what is essentially, a do over because of bad choices. Most sporting of you.



adarbrauner -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/19/2019 4:26:28 PM)

Well I don't know sincerely where the units were starting from, but I guess not from Manchuria or Korea, and even if they were in Peking area they would not have done it to Shangai in one day only.

Besides,

the train transportation mechanic in WITPAE is a bit crude and not that developed, I suspect. Where in the heavens would Japan have found all of that train availability (huge actually, we are talking moving an entire army on a less than a day notice, and where? China 1945, hundred rof miles (?) far on not that friendly territory, prone to sabotage?)

And what about enemy interdiction and air superiority, not represented almost at all in game?



JohnDillworth -> RE: Notes from a Small Island (2/19/2019 4:36:23 PM)

Yup. This will devolve into "well in real life....." vs. "This is a game/simulation and that is the way the game works" debate. Dan's solution is best. Explain, accept, and for goodness sakes just keep the game moving.



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