unknown IJN Battleship

unknown IJN Battleship (Full Version)

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Edward75 -> unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 1:00:20 PM)
Some sources indicate that this: 1. An unknown IJN Battleship is illuminated by a US destroyer or PT boat during the Battle of Surigao Strait. It is either Fusou, or Fusou's sister ship Yamashiro. The angle of the ship obscuring the tell-tale midsection turrets. 2. A Japanese Kongo-class battleship (probably the Kirishima) is captured in the glare of US searchlights during the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, November 13th, 1942. The photo was likely taken from the USS San Francisco (CA-38) I think that both are not correct. Your opinions? What is battleship, date, place? [image]local://upfiles/34797/7B109EE4B07B4D4F9A4CFD2C0993E791.jpg[/image]

Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 1:08:31 PM)
Not sure but its certainly not the Fuso or Yamashiro. The pagoda looks completly different.

crsutton -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 1:32:10 PM)
Definitely not illuminated from a PT boat. The angle and and illuminating power of the searchlight is way too high. Maybe a DD but why would a DD illuminate and risk getting blown out of the water as such close range? The ship in question shows no battle damage to my eye, I wonder if that photo was not taken by a fellow Japanese ship while on maneuvers.

MakeeLearn -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 2:21:09 PM)
Some say "Kirishima" if so it's Guadalcanal not as most say "Battle of Surigao Strait." https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/111462-guess-that-ship/ Searchlight from a floatplane?

MakeeLearn -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 2:31:11 PM)
OR Nagato during the Battle off Samar, "many believe it is a photo of Kirishima Class Battleship taken during First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, or Fuso Class during the Battle of Surigao Strait. But I have a different opinion because it looks more like a Nagato Class Battleship. I think it may be Nagato during the Battle off Samar, but I could be wrong for the battle because it was conducted during the morning. It could be other night battles participated by the Nagato. - The outline of the bridge in the photo does not match the. Fuso. The height of the bridge it should be higher than the one shown in the photo. - The Kirishima has two funnels, but the ship in the photo only has one. - The profile of the ship in the photo is lower than most Fuso / Kirishima Class battleship. It looks more like the Nagato. The other similar profile is the Hiei (Kirishima Class Battleship). So it could be possibility the Hiei. " https://www.flickr.com/photos/acstudio/21305352432/

Chickenboy -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 2:34:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton Definitely not illuminated from a PT boat. The angle and and illuminating power of the searchlight is way too high. Maybe a DD but why would a DD illuminate and risk getting blown out of the water as such close range? The ship in question shows no battle damage to my eye, I wonder if that photo was not taken by a fellow Japanese ship while on maneuvers. This is my guess as well. That BB is only a few hundred yards off. I don't recall any tale of an American DD being that close during either battle.

pontiouspilot -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 3:16:35 PM)
I agree re angle etc....I wonder if taken from plane??

geofflambert -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 3:25:20 PM)
It could have been Nagato retreating the night after Samar as seen by a US search plane.

geofflambert -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 3:37:30 PM)
Quote from "Sea of Thunder", this is after Musashi sank and before the Battle off Samar: "In the gathering darkness, a lone American night search plane flew high above Kurita's battered fleet. The pilot radioed his carrier, the Independence, that the Japanese battle fleet had turned around once again and now was headed on a southeasterly course - headed toward the San Bernardino Strait. The message reached Flag Plot aboard the New Jersey at about 8:00 P.M. from page 226

geofflambert -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 3:59:05 PM)
This from "The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" pg. 131: "Meanwhile, Kurita's powerful squadron raced through San Bernardino Strait by night, fighting a treacherous eight-knot current but aided by the glow of navigation lights arrayed on either side of the channel. The fact that the lights had been switched on had been duly noted by Third Fleet fliers. Night reconnaissance pilots from the light carrier Independence had spotted the beacons and reported the illuminated channel as a suspicious sign, even as Halsey was steaming north in preparation for a morning strike on Ozawa."

GetAssista -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 4:25:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: geofflambert It could have been Nagato retreating the night after Samar as seen by a US search plane. It looks like Nagato class. Only Kongos and Nagatos had short midships and one funnel sticking out of the middle. But secondary guns casemates are Nagatish. Plus aft superstructure does not look like a second funnel that Kongos had

witpqs -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 4:29:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton Definitely not illuminated from a PT boat. The angle and and illuminating power of the searchlight is way too high. Maybe a DD but why would a DD illuminate and risk getting blown out of the water as such close range? The ship in question shows no battle damage to my eye, I wonder if that photo was not taken by a fellow Japanese ship while on maneuvers. It even looks to me too high for a DD. In fact, it's angling down to the BB. What searchlight can angle down to a BB? Either shore-mounted or aircraft mounted.

witpqs -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 4:29:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn OR Nagato during the Battle off Samar, "many believe it is a photo of Kirishima Class Battleship taken during First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, or Fuso Class during the Battle of Surigao Strait. But I have a different opinion because it looks more like a Nagato Class Battleship. I think it may be Nagato during the Battle off Samar, but I could be wrong for the battle because it was conducted during the morning. It could be other night battles participated by the Nagato. - The outline of the bridge in the photo does not match the. Fuso. The height of the bridge it should be higher than the one shown in the photo. - The Kirishima has two funnels, but the ship in the photo only has one. - The profile of the ship in the photo is lower than most Fuso / Kirishima Class battleship. It looks more like the Nagato. The other similar profile is the Hiei (Kirishima Class Battleship). So it could be possibility the Hiei. " https://www.flickr.com/photos/acstudio/21305352432/ The battle off Samar was in daylight.

Lecivius -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 4:49:37 PM)
The battle was, but the previous airstrike force Kurita to retire, who then reversed course and came on again. Search planes noted a lot of this. I wonder if this was not a search plane [&:] An interesting conundrum, to be sure.

witpqs -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 4:58:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lecivius The battle was, but the previous airstrike force Kurita to retire, who then reversed course and came on again. Search planes noted a lot of this. I wonder if this was not a search plane [&:] An interesting conundrum, to be sure. Yes and BTW I missed that MakeeLearn has in his quote that the battle was in the morning.

Buckrock -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 4:59:56 PM)
US search aircraft relied on radar when locating/shadowing the IJN TFs at night during the Leyte battles. Swooping down to make a searchlight run against an enemy TF would seem an unnecessary risk for such a mission.

geofflambert -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 5:07:53 PM)
The night of the 25th in S B strait the ships were using searchlights and their were shore based search lights on as well. The strait is narrow and they were also trying to avoid ship to ship collisions. The searchlight need not have been from a search plane for the picture to be from a search plane.

geofflambert -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 5:12:54 PM)
My guess is that the light is from a lighthouse or other facility on the hills around the strait and that the photo was taken from the shore or another ship. [image]local://upfiles/37002/1126B2EFF7F84D54877D6F602093A4D3.jpg[/image]

geofflambert -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 5:21:20 PM)
Here's one on the northern shore of Samar overlooking the SB strait. [image]local://upfiles/37002/760CD139C02C4D5E880BF3F69BC9684D.jpg[/image]

geofflambert -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 5:21:50 PM)
Here's another [image]local://upfiles/37002/8AAA3464677F431286B1BB4FC051F5AA.jpg[/image]

geofflambert -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 5:29:37 PM)
Another [image]local://upfiles/37002/C7DF8B394E2E4F619F1BD362BB7125AC.jpg[/image]

geofflambert -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 5:30:15 PM)
another [image]local://upfiles/37002/FF360D5BB08842C5A22A41F8AC2A1198.jpg[/image]

BBfanboy -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 5:33:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: geofflambert Here's another [image]local://upfiles/37002/8AAA3464677F431286B1BB4FC051F5AA.jpg[/image] NSFW? [;)]

Chickenboy -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 5:35:20 PM)
This picture is in the book "Battle of Surigao Strait" by Anthony Tully: http://www.combinedfleet.com/Surigao/BattleofSurigaoStrait.htm Other online discussions contend that this was either Fuso or Yamashiro. Yet others claim it was either a Kongo class or even some Japanese CA. I've yet to see original primary source material rather than online conjecture.

BBfanboy -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 5:46:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy This picture is in the book "Battle of Surigao Strait" by Anthony Tully: http://www.combinedfleet.com/Surigao/BattleofSurigaoStrait.htm Other online discussions contend that this was either Fuso or Yamashiro. Yet others claim it was either a Kongo class or even some Japanese CA. I've yet to see original primary source material rather than online conjecture. Many authors take a photo they have found and include it in their books without checking its provenance. In this case, Fuso and Yamashiro are absolutely ruled out by their tall, convoluted superstructures, unlike the stocky tower in the picture. Hiei and Kirishima had fairly clean towers but Nagato seems to be the best fit for the tower, the vertical single funnel and the casemated guns along the top of the hull.

geofflambert -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 5:54:25 PM)
From page 237 of "Sea of Thunder": from a lookouts memoir, a Mr. Kosaku Koitabashi: "Rain squalls swept in, "but it didn't seem like the tropics," remembered Koitabashi. "It was foggy. There was no visibility." When a dark shape loomed up behind the Yamato, Koitabashi and the other lookouts cried out a warning. The battleship Kongo came surging out of the murk, nearly staving in the Yamato's stern. The two behemoths swung apart at the last moment. The squalls passed and the night cleared as the fleet entered the empty Philippine Sea at twenty minutes past midnight on the morning of October 25." From page 236 of "Sea of Thunder": "About a half-hour before midnight, a dive-bomber off the Independence, piloted by Lt. Phelps flew high above the narrow western entrance of the San Bernardino Strait. There, in solemn single-file procession, were more than a dozen Japanese warships, including four battleships. Lieutenant Phelps could see the ships playing their searchlights off the high cliffs at the entrance of the strait as the column crept through the narrow waters. It was the last look at Kurita's fleet that Phelps, or any American pilot, would get that night."

Zorch -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 5:56:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy This picture is in the book "Battle of Surigao Strait" by Anthony Tully: http://www.combinedfleet.com/Surigao/BattleofSurigaoStrait.htm Other online discussions contend that this was either Fuso or Yamashiro. Yet others claim it was either a Kongo class or even some Japanese CA. I've yet to see original primary source material rather than online conjecture. Many authors take a photo they have found and include it in their books without checking its provenance. In this case, Fuso and Yamashiro are absolutely ruled out by their tall, convoluted superstructures, unlike the stocky tower in the picture. Hiei and Kirishima had fairly clean towers but Nagato seems to be the best fit for the tower, the vertical single funnel and the casemated guns along the top of the hull. Those pagodas must have made them top-heavy. Any known instances of capsizing and/or excessive rolling?

Buckrock -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 5:57:12 PM)
If an author with the reputation of Tully has put the photo in his book on Surigao Strait, it's a fair bet it is likely from the night of that action.

BBfanboy -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 6:10:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zorch quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy This picture is in the book "Battle of Surigao Strait" by Anthony Tully: http://www.combinedfleet.com/Surigao/BattleofSurigaoStrait.htm Other online discussions contend that this was either Fuso or Yamashiro. Yet others claim it was either a Kongo class or even some Japanese CA. I've yet to see original primary source material rather than online conjecture. Many authors take a photo they have found and include it in their books without checking its provenance. In this case, Fuso and Yamashiro are absolutely ruled out by their tall, convoluted superstructures, unlike the stocky tower in the picture. Hiei and Kirishima had fairly clean towers but Nagato seems to be the best fit for the tower, the vertical single funnel and the casemated guns along the top of the hull. Those pagodas must have made them top-heavy. Any known instances of capsizing and/or excessive rolling? They were considered very top heavy and both Fuso and Yamashiro capsized quickly after torpedo hits induced a list. IIRC the IJN was forced to take measures to reduce topside weight in a number of their ship classes in the late 1930s. They had tried to cram too much armament on their decks and suffered for seaworthiness. BB Fuso: [image]local://upfiles/35791/EFF36E0301604C178E516C6670AC9DAF.jpg[/image]

BBfanboy -> RE: unknown IJN Battleship (9/6/2017 6:13:35 PM)
BB Kongo: [image]local://upfiles/35791/F0912A3E386A4BF79539EA86F6ECA630.jpg[/image]

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