Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (Full Version)

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LoBlo -> Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/12/2017 7:04:41 PM)

I never served. I have a grandfather who is 94 years old (and still lives by himself) that is a WWII veteran and several members of my extended family that are or have served.

Sometimes I feel strange about "wargaming". Because what war really represents is so horrible that our recreation of its simulation seems twisted. It sometimes seems like it would be akin to "spousal abuse gaming"..... :\ I makes me wonder...

This is an interesting editorial on WWII losses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwKPFT-RioU



kevinkins -> RE: Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/13/2017 4:07:11 AM)

Well war gaming has a rich history. Do you think chess is akin to spousal abuse? The modern military war games all the time. Are they all abusers of their family? I respect being a pacifist. There are plenty of gentile places set aside for you. But to participate in the larger world, one has to accept conflict and prepare for it. Pretty simple.

Respectfully,
Kevin



KitsuneKojima -> RE: Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/13/2017 4:34:16 AM)

My uncle (or should I say, "granduncle"?) was a partisant during the Warsaw Upspring in 1944. He is my grandmother's brother (they both were lucky enough to survive the Upspring). He was living far from my hometown and I remember that the first time when I met him I was about 14 years old and totally obsessed about the World War II. I was playing Steel Panthers a lot, I had tank posters in my room etc. My mother suggested that I should gently ask him about his memories (and it was ok, because he actually is a veteran activist, so there is no problem for him to talk about it). And the moment I sat and talked to him was probably the most important experience in my life when it comes to viewing war.

I was smart enough to know that war is not fun in any way from the start, but when he spoke about the things I was fascinated about from the different perspective, without naming them, and instead describing them with nicknames, or just basically described what he felt as a 14 year old boy. That was an entire new layer of feelings there. The nebelwerfer, a "unit" I knew so well from the games and books, injured him causing scaring on the right side of his face. And he didn't even know the name of it, he just called it "cow" or "closet". He said he still hears the terrible howling in his ears, and the pain caused by glass and splinters.

There is nothing wrong with playing wargames, but the important thing is to remember what it really is. I am still interested in WW2 and military in general, but I remember my uncle statements. I know the cost of all of it. Or I think I know: I try to imagine it, but I never want to experience it by myself.

Military fascination is normal, but war should be only viewed on the monitor / tv screen or in the museums. It is extremely cool to call in the artillery in a game, but I can still see the bullet holes everywhere around in Warsaw. And by the looks of it, it is not so cool when you are around in person. With this in mind, there is nothing wrong to play some war games. After all it is a great part of human history (and, sadly, part of a present day too). And to me, playing and enjoying war games paradoxically make me more of a pacifist. I just know how it works. That there is no glory on the battlefield. That somebody can send a dozen of missiles in your way and you will still be in your pajamas when they'd hit.

I would really like some politicians to play C:MANO before talking lightly about war, you know.



HalfLifeExpert -> RE: Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/13/2017 4:40:42 AM)

The thing is, War is a fact of human society and civilization. Unless some unforeseen transformation occurs with humans, we will probably make war upon each other as long as we are in existence. It isn't really fair to compare war in general to spousal abuse. Spousal abuse is objectively wrong, with war, its hardly such a clear cut situation.

War is probably the ultimate double edged sword of humanity. There have been conflicts justified and unjustified, bloodbaths and relatively harmless conflicts. War is not something humanity should be proud of, but a regrettable necessity that has shaped our development as a civilization countless times, for better or worse.

I think to be ether 100% Pro-War or 100% Anti-war are both illogical mindsets. Speaking in a collective sense, to be completely for warfare will inevitably lead to more conflict, that is obvious, but at the same time, being completely against war will leave oneself more vulnerable to threats from other humans. And to go a little sci-fi, eventually in human history, we will expand into space, and I think we will inevitably encounter other non-human societies, and we must be prepared to fight should our neighbors prove less than friendly.

The best way forward with regard to war, in my opinion, is to learn as much as possible about war, in all aspects and respects, from the causes, strategies and tactics to the suffering, the mistakes and the tragedies alike. This would hopefully serve not only as reminders of the horrors of war, but provide eternal lessons on what not to do, so that bloodbaths can be avoided. In most of what I have learned in history, the terrible bloodbaths in war tend to be the result of someone doing something wrong, be it intentional brutality or mistakes of some kind.

Wargaming, aside from providing some fun entertainment, very much can also help reinforce the lessons of a given conflict if done properly. True, there are several games out there in a number of genres that treat war more like an action movie than a terrible event, but that is no reason to write off all games that depict war as being disrespectful. Also as kevinkin said, the actual armed forces of the world's nations wargame all the time for very real and practical reasons that should be obvious.

War must be accepted as an inevitability. To ignore human conflict will not only set the stage for more conflict, but make conflicts even more bloody and destructive than otherwise, because we would have failed to learn important lessons, such as the ineffectiveness of strategic bombing of an opposing country, or the ineffective and dangerous effects of chemical warfare, and even the atomic horror brought down upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki as a permanent reminder of why we must never split the atom in anger again. In my opinion, those who were killed in those two cities, while tragic, posthumously served the world greatly by permanently providing us with real victims of nuclear warfare to look at to discourage use of nuclear weapons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KitsuneKojima

I would really like some politicians to play C:MANO before talking lightly about war, you know.


General populace too. I roll my eyes at people who think it would be easy and relatively harmless to attack North Korea's nukes. The worst is the uneducated people who state "Let's just nuke them [insert enemy here]"



KitsuneKojima -> RE: Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/13/2017 5:04:32 AM)

I'm so glad you're here, HalfLifeExpert! Nice to see you again.

I can already see that I'm not on your level when it comes to express my thoughts in English, but I agree totally.

I can't stand some of politicians playing the "war card" in really demagogic way, especially the politicians from less powerful countries. Sadly, there is also a lot of people that like this rhetoric and it is almost romantic in some way, but at the same time terribly deluded.

I agree that we must face the fact that the war is a part of humanity. And that it probably won't go away anytime soon. But at the same time, it is probably the biggest horror to experience, especially for someone from younger generation, someone shielded from the all possible harmful things like hunger, thieft, etc. Someone who was growing up in this pacifistic illusion with rules and laws. It is basically the end of the world, at least for a civillian.



HalfLifeExpert -> RE: Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/13/2017 5:12:02 AM)

Good to see you on here as well Kitsune, welcome to the Matrix CMANO forum!


quote:

ORIGINAL: KitsuneKojima

I can already see that I'm not on your level when it comes to express my thoughts in English, but I agree totally.



????? You write just fine in English! What is your native language?


And yes, to shut out the bad things just makes things worse. It's like that time my father told me about a study he had read where children who grew up in very wealthy families tended to be more vulnerable to getting sick. The reason was that the surfaces of the residences were always kept spotless, reducing overall exposure to germs and bacteria, and thus leading to the children not having as good immune systems as children living in middle and lower class households.





KitsuneKojima -> RE: Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/13/2017 5:36:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HalfLifeExpert

Good to see you on here as well Kitsune, welcome to the Matrix CMANO forum!


quote:

ORIGINAL: KitsuneKojima

I can already see that I'm not on your level when it comes to express my thoughts in English, but I agree totally.



????? You write just fine in English! What is your native language?


And yes, to shut out the bad things just makes things worse. It's like that time my father told me about a study he had read where children who grew up in very wealthy families tended to be more vulnerable to getting sick. The reason was that the surfaces of the residences were always kept spotless, reducing overall exposure to germs and bacteria, and thus leading to the children not having as good immune systems as children living in middle and lower class households.





I'm Polish. I usually have no problem understanding and I can write almost everything (especially when I have google in the background), but I'm getting lost when tackling some more complex problems that require a lot of difficult words. Also, I hate and am terrible at grammar and I often get lost with english prono... pron.. pronounciation? But thank you nonetheless, at least you can understand me!

That's true. That is the reason why very often the most caring mothers have the most sickly children and asking themselves why is that. And the most careless ones often have no problems at all.

You know, I mostly have nothing against modern, or "western" ways of life (and maybe that is not the place to talk about it), but someday I wonder, how all these vegan, pro-life, metrosexual, self-centered, "modern" people will cope when something bad happens. Again, there is mostly nothing wrong with it as long as we live in peaceful times. But this "safe bubble" frightens me sometimes. My grand-grandfather was secretly butchering pigs, hidding from the Nazis (it was forbidden to do it without their knowledge and the punishment was almost surely death). And all his children participated, not because they were some sick psychos, but because that was their only source of food. And they was crying from happiness when the food other than bread and water was avaliable. And today some children don't even know that the actual meat is from animals! And you can find videos on youtube of children stating that eating meat is murder, etc.

I would love for our generation to live in this safe bubble for long, long time, but I can't help but wonder how we will cope when times change. I hope they won't. But it is reasonable to at least keep some common sense. Otherwise, the giant reality check is on it's way.



stilesw -> RE: Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/13/2017 2:45:13 PM)

KitsuneKojima, HalfLifeExpert,

Could not agree with you more! My father was in the Army Air Corps stationed in England during WWII. He did not see direct combat but would seldom speak about his experiences - he briefed B-17 bomber crews on their missions and, as we know, many did not come back.

I was in the USAF during Vietnam - again lucky enough to not be in combat myself but knew 3TFW F-4 crews who deployed from Kunsan, Korea to Vietnam in April 1972 and once again not all came back.

War is bad, human nature will likely dictate that it will not go away. If the price is too high and no one can "win" then perhaps it can be kept somewhat at bay. Of course you always have mad men as we see in Pongyang.

Directing hostilities through simulations such as CMANO may possibly let off some steam.

-Wayne Stiles



LoBlo -> RE: Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/14/2017 1:00:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Well war gaming has a rich history. Do you think chess is akin to spousal abuse? The modern military war games all the time. Are they all abusers of their family? I respect being a pacifist. There are plenty of gentile places set aside for you. But to participate in the larger world, one has to accept conflict and prepare for it. Pretty simple.

Respectfully,
Kevin


Pacifist? Hardly.

Reflecting on what we generally view as entertainment? Yes.

It just brings things in perspective. Everything is a on a continuum and a matter of perspective. For example, some people love to watch horror films as entertainment, but I find the depiction of pain, suffering, and debauchery far from entertaining. Others from another era may look at my fascination with 'action movies' like Terminator II or Aliens as grotesque glorifications of mass shootings and death.

I have to admit, I play 'kill-em-all' games all the time and its more of an intrigue and fascination that anything.

Still, Its good to remember the realities sometimes.

lb



Cik -> RE: Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/14/2017 1:05:10 AM)

you're not really killing anything, you're just causing pieces of computer memory to modify other pieces of computer memory.

personally i've never held with the moral panic "muh videogame violence"

there are far more visceral expressions of play-acting- SCA/renaissance combat festivals for instance- and yet nobody swarms congress with pikes to reinstitute a monarchy.

i mean, yet.



kevinkins -> RE: Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/14/2017 3:55:12 AM)

quote:

Pacifist? Hardly.


Loblo

Not sure why you brought this up unless you were really philosophical couple of nights ago. I have been there after a few on a Saturday night. No harm. I am not sure what's worse. Taking a man's paycheck in poker game or killing pixels on a screen simulating war? Personally, I would stay home fighting a war game since I do not gamble.

Kevin



LoBlo -> RE: Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/14/2017 4:04:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

quote:

Pacifist? Hardly.


Loblo

Not sure why you brought this up unless you were really philosophical couple of nights ago. I have been there after a few on a Saturday night. No harm. I am not sure what's worse. Taking a man's paycheck in poker game or killing pixels on a screen simulating war? Personally, I would stay home fighting a war game since I do not gamble.

Kevin


Because I was surprised by the numbers and thought it was insightful and wanted to share with the rest of the wargaming community.
I work a 12 hour shift on most weekends (up at 530am) so for me a Saturday night is a workday.

cheers,
lb



thewood1 -> RE: Off Topic: WW2, the cost of war (9/14/2017 5:22:41 PM)

If you want to discuss with a broader audience, I'd suggest re-posting in the Matrix General forum. These types of discussions have gone on there before and they tend to draw more people in to them.



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