Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness (Full Version)

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Tortue Agile -> Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness (9/22/2017 3:56:27 PM)

Good morning gentlemen,

I have started a few days ago to play this great game. But I am wondering what's the intend with the French Nation.
Their moral is lower than the Italians, the army is weak and whatever we do as an allied player we will loose France every time. It's possible to delay the advance of the Germans by sending more Brits I guess but it doesn't last much longer.

So for the beginning of the game I am wondering why bother having a scenario starting in 1939 (on the allied side) when we know that whatever we do Poland and France will fall quickly.

Historically France was considered as a challenge by the Germans. By May 10 it had 3 DCR and 3 DLM which were the equivalent of Tank divisions (the firsts with heavy B1bis tanks and the seconds coming from the cavalry school with the excellent Somua S35).

If one read Robert Doughty's Breaking Point and Frieser's The Blitzkrieg Legend: The 1940 Campaign in the West it's evident that it wasn't expected to be a walk in the park and that luck played a good part in the result.

So that's why I am wondering if the first turns of the game try to only to simulate the initial results without giving to the player the possibility to create a strategy that will make it possible (but not easy) for France to survive.
War games in my opinions are enjoyable when we can test ideas about what happened and alternatives.
We know as a fact that Poland and the western countries felt fast. But would it be possible to find a strategy to counter the German onslaught?



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness (9/22/2017 6:38:08 PM)

quote:

But would it be possible to find a strategy to counter the German onslaught?

No. Neither France nor Britain could help Poland. For May 1940, Frieser's book is excellent, but also see Alistair Horne's To Lose a Battle. France was flawed in every way and had no hope of surviving.



crispy131313 -> RE: Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness (9/22/2017 7:06:14 PM)

The most recent game I finished I was able to move the French government to Algiers, defeat the Italian/German invasion of Tunisia and rally the French to co-cooperatively defeat Italy by April of 1942. The game does not have to be a historical simulation, but will be until something unhistorical happens. I'm not sure the Allies are strong enough to force a unhistorical situation in the first 9 months of the war though.



Tortue Agile -> RE: Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness (9/22/2017 10:14:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

But would it be possible to find a strategy to counter the German onslaught?

No. Neither France nor Britain could help Poland. For May 1940, Frieser's book is excellent, but also see Alistair Horne's To Lose a Battle. France was flawed in every way and had no hope of surviving.


It's hard to compare Alistair Horne's older analyze of the campaign with Friezer or Doughty. Horne didn't have access to the same historical material as the 2 others who did an extended research (and not jus repeat the misconceptions of the past). We know now for example that the defeat of France was partly due to its military leaders. We know that the French tanks were equal or even superior to the German's.

If I look at the units given to France for the may 40 scenario I'm struggling to find any of the DLM or DCR that were present on the field of battle.

The game reproduces the historical outcome without taking in consideration the strength of the armies on the field.



Sugar -> RE: Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness (9/22/2017 11:18:21 PM)

quote:

The game reproduces the historical outcome without taking in consideration the strength of the armies on the field.


That`s not the case, there`s at least 1 french heavy tank, their lack of communication and modern warfare doctrine is represented by his ability to attack just once, while german tanks attack twice (Germany has already tank warfare from the start). It also represents departing their tanks as inf. support.

Beside the given situation at start, from there on you are relatively free in deciding what strategy is favourable. Maybe using the mod "Calm before the Storm", which starts early 38, is providing better conditions in your favor.

SC3 is not a WW2 simulation, nor is it a sandbox game.




Tortue Agile -> RE: Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness (9/23/2017 1:08:45 AM)

quote:

That`s not the case, there`s at least 1 french heavy tank, their lack of communication and modern warfare doctrine is represented by his ability to attack just once, while german tanks attack twice (Germany has already tank warfare from the start). It also represents departing their tanks as inf. support.


France had 2 types of tank divisions and 3 kind of formations/purpose:
- The DCR (with heavy tanks B1 bis and medium tanks) supposed to be used for breakthrough.
- The DLM (which fought with some success in Belgium at Hannut and Gembloux) their role at the beginning of the campaign was to screen the advance of the motorized infantry.
- The independent battalions under corps or army command which were used in support of infantry and that's what most people think about when they think about the use of tanks by France during the 1940 campaign.








Tortue Agile -> RE: Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness (9/23/2017 1:32:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Beside the given situation at start, from there on you are relatively free in deciding what strategy is favourable. Maybe using the mod "Calm before the Storm", which starts early 38, is providing better conditions in your favor.



I'll give it a try. Thanks for the tip.



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