BVR - observations (Full Version)

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Stealth2017 -> BVR - observations (9/30/2017 2:18:55 AM)

I would like to ask the fellow players if they ever had to fire 21 missiles in order to destroy 1 aircraft, namely Su-30 MKK. I have fired 3 RIM-174A-2 ERAM SM-6MR Blk IA [Dual I] and 18 AMRAAMs (P3I.3&P3I.4) in order to shoot down one aircraft???? It is worth of mentioning that an aircraft has been hit with 1 missile previously. My own experience from playing Hail Mary scenario is that you have to fire 3-5 AMRAAMs against highly agile fighters like SU-27, SU-30 in order to destroy them. I know that this has already been discussed, but the aircraft damage model needs to be altered. It is really hard to believe that you need to hit the mentioned aircrafts with 3 missiles in order to destroy them, if you hit them with 2 missiles they will be able to keep flying like nothing happened at all, the only consequence being lower speed (loiter).



Maromak -> RE: BVR - observations (9/30/2017 4:13:30 AM)

Can you please post a save game file and/or log?



Dimitris -> RE: BVR - observations (9/30/2017 6:29:19 AM)

Hello.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stealth2017
I would like to ask the fellow players if they ever had to fire 21 missiles in order to destroy 1 aircraft, namely Su-30 MKK.

In the Falklands, an Argentine Boeing 707 was fired at by 6 Sea Darts, and they all missed. Welcome to statistical outliers (aka lucky SOBs).

quote:


I have fired 3 RIM-174A-2 ERAM SM-6MR Blk IA [Dual I] and 18 AMRAAMs (P3I.3&P3I.4) in order to shoot down one aircraft????

How many of them were outrun? How many jammed/spoofed? How many evaded? How many actually impacted? What damage did each impact cause? Were the missiles fired at extreme range? (ie. much easier to outrun or evade.) How did the aircraft react? "I fired X missiles and they didn't bring it down" doesn't really tell us something useful. As Maromak said, a pre-engagement save would be helpful.

quote:


My own experience from playing Hail Mary scenario is that you have to fire 3-5 AMRAAMs against highly agile fighters like SU-27, SU-30 in order to destroy them.

This is unrealistic because....?

quote:


I know that this has already been discussed, but the aircraft damage model needs to be altered.

Changes are coming: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4348135 .
In the meantime, if you consider the current AC damage model unrealistic or game-killing, you can disable it until the next update.

quote:


It is really hard to believe that you need to hit the mentioned aircrafts with 3 missiles in order to destroy them,

Based on.....?

quote:


if you hit them with 2 missiles they will be able to keep flying like nothing happened at all, the only consequence being lower speed (loiter).

Did you switch to the Chinese side and inspect the aircraft for damage? I'd guess they weren't exactly in tiptop shape. Also, were they pressing on with their mission or RTB-ing due to excessive damage? (ie. an effective mission-kill).

Thanks.



Stealth2017 -> RE: BVR - observations (9/30/2017 11:02:47 AM)

Hello Dimitris,

I'll try to answer some of your questions,

How many jammed/spoofed?
As far as I can remember 60-70% were jammed/spoofed. All 5 missiles in one occasion were jammed/spoofed, probability success was just 1% - chaffs

How many actually impacted? - only 1 out of 21, <5% ! Even during the Vietnam era it was around 20%
"Operationally, the missile, which was designed for beyond visual range combat, has a Pk of 61.1% (18 missiles for 11 kills).[12] The targets included six MiG-29s, a MiG-25, a MiG-23, a Su-22, a Galeb and a US Army Blackhawk that was targeted by mistake. MiG-29- an excellent dogfighter, great maneuverability; a MiG-25 one of the fastest fighters.

Were the missiles fired at extreme range? I would not say so - AMRAAMs (P3I.3&P3I.4) were fired from 50 nm, RIM-174A-2 ERAM SM-6MR Blk IA [Dual I ] - 100 nm. I would start evading maneuvers at 50 nm to avoid being hit by enemy AAMs, there was an AWACS aircraft just 60-70 miles away, the missiles had a clear fix on a target all the time.
What damage did each impact cause? No damage at all, aircraft's performance had not been impacted at all, evaded 20 missiles successfully before being destroyed by the 21st fired missile.

This is unrealistic because....? Based on.....? Warhead - High explosive blast-fragmentation - Warhead: 20 kilogram (44 pound)
The fighters are not protected by any armor unlike A-10. 18 missiles for 11 kills-1 missile per destroyed aircraft, real world performance!

Did you switch to the Chinese side and inspect the aircraft for damage? I'd guess they weren't exactly in tiptop shape. I would dare to say that your assumption is not correct. On a few occasions my F22s have suffered extensive damage-79.9% - no vital system has been impacted at all, the only damage being destroyed Link16 and UHF radio.

Thanks.





Sardaukar -> RE: BVR - observations (9/30/2017 11:14:28 AM)

It'd say your missiles WERE fired at extreme range. 50 nm is totally around edge of AMRAAM engagement envelope. AI pilots are not drones (in a sense), but will e.g. afterburner away to run your missiles out of energy.It is extremely easy for agile planes to avoid max. range shots, since missiles lack kinetic energy to follow the evasive maneuvers.

You were killing your PH% (% to hit) by placing your missiles into unfavourable situation.

You should use WRA (Weapon Release Authority) setting to not so shoot outside more than 75% of your missile's max. range.

E.g. you were firing AIM-120C-7 at range of about 93km (50nm) with missile max. range of 112km or so...

And that distance, it is quite easy for enemy to drop under radar horizon to break the lock from surface targeting platform.




thewood1 -> RE: BVR - observations (9/30/2017 11:37:47 AM)

If you won't put a save up, can you at least put the log file up?



Filitch -> RE: BVR - observations (9/30/2017 12:19:37 PM)

Interesting material to answer questions "This is unrealistic because....? Based on.....?"
http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf
As we can see "Vietnam era" has Pk ~9%, and only 0% or 7% for BWR.



Stealth2017 -> RE: BVR - observations (9/30/2017 12:23:29 PM)

Hi,

not all missiles were C7, there was a number of AIM-120D with even the longer range 75 nm, 50/75=66%, well below 75%. Typically SU-30MKK would start evading maneuvers 10-15 miles the missiles being away, not going afterburn to run away the missiles but rather going to very low altitude - 91m.

And that distance, it is quite easy for enemy to drop under radar horizon to break the lock from surface targeting platform - This is a true BUT I had an AWACS very close, 60-70 miles away, a target was illuminated all the time. For a comparison, my AWACS in the very same scenario has managed to locate a KD-20 flying at 91m at very long distance 171 nm, a KD-20 has got the RCS of 0.23 sq.m. while SU-30 MKK's RCS is 7.9 sq.m.

"CEC provides real time integration of fire control quality sensor data into a single composite data source which can be used by multiple CEC ships and airborne units for direct and remote missile engagements. CEC significantly improves battle force anti-air warfare (AAW) capability by coordinating all force AAW sensors into a single real time, fire control quality composite track picture. CEC, when integrated with Anti-Air Warfare (AAW) weapon systems in a Battle Force (BF) or Surface Action Group (SAG), results in a distributed AAW weapon system among participating Cooperating Units (CU's). Successful AAW in a BF or SAG relies on coordinating and controlling AAW assets among AAW-capable ships. As threat inventories increase and hostile counter-measures become more sophisticated, fleet AAW movements must address individual ship AAW capabilities and coordinate the sensors and weapons of individual ships into a cooperative BF or SAG distributed AAW system. Data sharing from primary AAW sensors of a BF provides timely, accurate data ensuring greater engagement decision and prosecution responsiveness in case of battle engagement. Further, coherent, high-quality sensor data and engagement status information shared among multiple ships automates engagement decisions".

Thanks



Sardaukar -> RE: BVR - observations (9/30/2017 1:10:08 PM)

You should read the log file of engagement. It tells you almost everything you need to know.

And you could actually provide save game or log file for more knowledgeable people here.

You are making assumptions that just are not true, or others would have put them up. There are reasons why things happen in this simulator. So again, I'd suggest you'd study the engagement log file and come back after that if you still have problems.



Sardaukar -> RE: BVR - observations (9/30/2017 1:14:11 PM)

And I hope you know that very few AWACS planes are able to update e.g. missiles like AMRAAM AIM-120D targeting data (only E-2D, I think). It doesn't matter what sort of CEC you have if your fire control cannot update your missiles.

Your AWACS may tell where enemy is, but it might not be able to guide SM-6ER. As far as I know, co-operative engagement with SM-6 is restricted to surface ships only.



Dimitris -> RE: BVR - observations (9/30/2017 2:03:00 PM)

Stealth2017 < So one actual impact, one kill. So your issue is not with per-impact aircraft damage, but with missile evasion. Which is something that has been discussed at length for years in this forum, with repeated refinements in the sim.

I cannot comment any further before I see a pre-engagement save or at least a post-engagement message log.



Cik -> RE: BVR - observations (9/30/2017 3:46:05 PM)

ultimately hombre it's a coinflip (with some weighted odds) command flips like 10,000 coins in a decent sized scenario so one run where it comes up heads 20 times in a row is not unheard of.

though i'm interested to hear exactly how much PK% you're getting at what is probably max range against supermaneuverable targets- if it's 20% 20 misses isn't even that far outside statistical norm. I've seen way worse on tabletop games.



Stealth2017 -> RE: BVR - observations (11/2/2017 10:31:22 AM)

Your AWACS may tell where enemy is, but it might not be able to guide SM-6ER. As far as I know, co-operative engagement with SM-6 is restricted to surface ships only.

Take a look to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txjLg7EB-PY

You can skip directly to 3:59.

Regards,



Dimitris -> RE: BVR - observations (11/2/2017 10:33:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stealth2017
Your AWACS may tell where enemy is, but it might not be able to guide SM-6ER. As far as I know, co-operative engagement with SM-6 is restricted to surface ships only.

Take a look to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txjLg7EB-PY

You can skip directly to 3:59.

Regards,


The E-2D can provide mid-course guidance for SM-6 using the CEC link.



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