Surplus of Soviet Tanks (Full Version)

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56ajax -> Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/8/2017 6:17:03 AM)

What do I do with the all those Soviet Tanks...or how do i use them....

It is T43 and I have close to 3600 post 1939 tanks sitting in the pool.

Armaments points is well up, though manpower is lowish and the vehicle pool is on a steady decline....

Independent Tank Battalions? Get every Tank brigade to charge!!!!!!

Advice please.



Stelteck -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/8/2017 8:08:31 AM)

You mean T-34, right ? Are you sūre it is T-43 ?

The problem with medium tank is that soviet have a huge production (and also getting huge number from land lease) without having the units to use them.
On the other side, you will always lack light tanks.
(Heavy tanks production looks ok).

- In 1941, armored division mostly use light tanks.
- Middle 1941, the tank bataillon can be created, but this support unit use 2/3 light tanks and 1/3 others, so you cannot use it to use your spare medium tanks.
- End 1941, you have 100 tanks brigades, but they are using 50% light tanks, 35% medium tanks and 15% heavy.
- Spring 1942, the tank corps use 50% light tanks, 35% medium tanks and 15% heavy.
- November 1942, the tank corps is upgraded. Heavy tanks are removed and now the corps will use 40% light tanks, 60% medium tanks. (But you can and must create guard heavy tank regiments to use heavy tanks).
- January 1943, the tank bataillon is upgraded to tank regiment, using now 70% medium tanks.
- November 1943, at last, the tank corps and tank bataillon looses their light tanks to have 100% medium tanks.

So in the current production system, there is no solution to use your spare medium tanks, at least until end 1943. (And you may have 10000 spare medium tanks end 1943 so it will still be complicated).

And you will always lack light tanks....





GPT55 -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/8/2017 5:03:44 PM)

Stelteck, thanks for the clear description of the light vs. medium tank situation. I have to wonder if WiTE isn't being way to inflexible in strictly filling units according to arbitrary TOEs. Would the Soviets really not substitute superior medium tanks for light tanks when there are thousands of medium tanks sitting in inventory, and no light tanks? It seems like an attempt to be super realistic that is not actually realistic and just doesn't make sense. Maybe this can't be changed in WiTE 1--but I hope it can be improved in WiTE 2.



Crackaces -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/8/2017 6:06:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gpt

Stelteck, thanks for the clear description of the light vs. medium tank situation. I have to wonder if WiTE isn't being way to inflexible in strictly filling units according to arbitrary TOEs. Would the Soviets really not substitute superior medium tanks for light tanks when there are thousands of medium tanks sitting in inventory, and no light tanks? It seems like an attempt to be super realistic that is not actually realistic and just doesn't make sense. Maybe this can't be changed in WiTE 1--but I hope it can be improved in WiTE 2.


I agree with your assessment. At the very least for AP’s Allow the Soviet to create Medium Tank units or some other TO&E ratio .. the other possibility i think is to edit through the editor to create ahistorical units ?



Stelteck -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 4:59:49 PM)

I think the T-34 production in the game is probably realistic for an historical point of view. I know that the developper are really carefull of that.
Same as the TOE of tank brigade and corps. (And numbers are also historical).

So i wonder where the soviet union used all these T-34.

Reading wikipedia, it looks like the battle of moscow end 1941 hardly saw any T-34. Only 45 were engaged here according to the article. (Mostly T-60 and others light tanks fought the battle). It is only end 1942/1943 that the T-34 was more than half of soviet tanks.
But still in 1941 1800 T-34 were producted and 12000+ in 1942. Where did all these T-34 went ?

Did soviet loose them far more than we loose them in game ? Did they store them in depot like us in game and not use them ? Or sent them in 6 month training before engaging ?

Anyone have historical info of T-34 looses or things like that ?




No idea -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 5:58:57 PM)

Two probable reasons:

1. Low casualties
2. APs crunch that wasnt present irl.

Or both at the same time



morvael -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 6:09:42 PM)

In my PBEM game I had a shortage of medium tanks, mostly after T-34/85 went into production.

Players are too passive, in other words game doesn't encourage you to attack constantly and burn your tank pool in this way.



No idea -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 6:23:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

In my PBEM game I had a shortage of medium tanks, mostly after T-34/85 went into production.

Players are too passive, in other words game doesn't encourage you to attack constantly and burn your tank pool in this way.


The problem is in the game you know, more or less, when you are going to win a battle (with something between 2.5 and 3 times CV a full atack will give you victory 95% of times). So, with this on mind, many times it is pointless to attck when you know you are going to be defeated. IRL they didnt have the luxury of doing a quick math and knowing if the attack was going to be sucessful. They didnt have the perfect info we have (well, most times is perfect, as you exactly know the CV of your enemy 90% of the times you attack)



Stelteck -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 6:35:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

In my PBEM game I had a shortage of medium tanks, mostly after T-34/85 went into production.

Players are too passive, in other words game doesn't encourage you to attack constantly and burn your tank pool in this way.


Ok so shortage can happen in 1944. Never reached this date yet, but i'am in the way. Will be interesting.



Stelteck -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 6:38:12 PM)

The problem of attacking and failing is that it give morale to the ennemy. (And ennemy looses are often not so much).

Failure also slow the guard promotion of your units.




Crackaces -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 6:45:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

In my PBEM game I had a shortage of medium tanks, mostly after T-34/85 went into production.

Players are too passive, in other words game doesn't encourage you to attack constantly and burn your tank pool in this way.


The problem is in the game you know, more or less, when you are going to win a battle (with something between 2.5 and 3 times CV a full atack will give you victory 95% of times). So, with this on mind, many times it is pointless to attck when you know you are going to be defeated. IRL they didnt have the luxury of doing a quick math and knowing if the attack was going to be sucessful. They didnt have the perfect info we have (well, most times is perfect, as you exactly know the CV of your enemy 90% of the times you attack)



I am not sure they really cared ... using an American analogy .. Grant knew he had a lot more stuff that eventually the South could not replace .. so he took on a lopsided war of attrition until the South broke (well the election of 1864 was closer because of Grant ;) ) I can see the Soviets knowing they have a bad exchange ratio 7:1 but also know the eventually in a war of attrition the Germans can keep the production levels ..
I think a battle option to "hold at all costs" and/or "attack or come back dead" option that increases casualties at a higher risk of rout or increased morale reduction might make such an alternative feasible.



Stelteck -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 7:15:24 PM)

But in game the limiting factor for the soviet union is manpower.

We cannot say that the soviet in game have manpower surplus. The soviet have tank surplus, armement surplus but lack manpower all the time. The stocks are always zero.

So i'am not sūre the "exchange ratio" thing is a good idea in the current campaign. The soviet army need quality troops to compensate the lack of manpower.



morvael -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 7:51:18 PM)

Tanks use less manpower than infantry, so throw your tank brigades at the enemy :)

johntoml56, how many tanks in the field do you have? What units?

On turn 43 I had 6787 AFV in the field (bear in mind it was played on an older version, and many things worked differently then).
Had about 18k at the end of 1943, that were reduced to 13k at the end of '44 summer. Rebuilt in three months to 22k in January 1945, after five weeks of an all-out offensive were down to 17k. 2048 lost on the last turn :)

Finished the war with 28 Tank Corps, 1 Tank Brigade, 6 Mechanized Corps, 62 Light SU Brigades, 20 Cavalry Corps, 55 Heavy Tank Regiments, 33 Heavy SU Regiments, 1 Light SU Regiment, and 27 Flame Tank Regiments.




No idea -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 8:14:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

In my PBEM game I had a shortage of medium tanks, mostly after T-34/85 went into production.

Players are too passive, in other words game doesn't encourage you to attack constantly and burn your tank pool in this way.


The problem is in the game you know, more or less, when you are going to win a battle (with something between 2.5 and 3 times CV a full atack will give you victory 95% of times). So, with this on mind, many times it is pointless to attck when you know you are going to be defeated. IRL they didnt have the luxury of doing a quick math and knowing if the attack was going to be sucessful. They didnt have the perfect info we have (well, most times is perfect, as you exactly know the CV of your enemy 90% of the times you attack)



I am not sure they really cared ... using an American analogy .. Grant knew he had a lot more stuff that eventually the South could not replace .. so he took on a lopsided war of attrition until the South broke (well the election of 1864 was closer because of Grant ;) ) I can see the Soviets knowing they have a bad exchange ratio 7:1 but also know the eventually in a war of attrition the Germans can keep the production levels ..
I think a battle option to "hold at all costs" and/or "attack or come back dead" option that increases casualties at a higher risk of rout or increased morale reduction might make such an alternative feasible.



At least in the first two years of the war the soviets tought germen tank production was similar to theirs (when it was much lower) And they should have known the axis powers had more manpower after a good chunk of european soviet union was overrum



No idea -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 8:16:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

But in game the limiting factor for the soviet union is manpower.

We cannot say that the soviet in game have manpower surplus. The soviet have tank surplus, armement surplus but lack manpower all the time. The stocks are always zero.

So i'am not sūre the "exchange ratio" thing is a good idea in the current campaign. The soviet army need quality troops to compensate the lack of manpower.


I find trucks to be the biggest limitor of soviet advance.



STEF78 -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 8:23:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Ok so shortage can happen in 1944. Never reached this date yet, but i'am in the way. Will be interesting.


You should reach 1944 as russian within a few monthes [:D]

Just as example my OOB as russian in march 1944 (against Bobo)

[img]https://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/318260bobo144oob.jpg[/img]

and a good way to use T34 (march 1944 too). A killing unit!

[img]https://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/628231bobo144mech.jpg[/img]



wallas -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/11/2017 11:32:23 PM)

Just convert a medium tank factory to light tanks if your allowed.



56ajax -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/12/2017 2:18:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

In my PBEM game I had a shortage of medium tanks, mostly after T-34/85 went into production.

Players are too passive, in other words game doesn't encourage you to attack constantly and burn your tank pool in this way.


The problem is in the game you know, more or less, when you are going to win a battle (with something between 2.5 and 3 times CV a full atack will give you victory 95% of times). So, with this on mind, many times it is pointless to attck when you know you are going to be defeated. IRL they didnt have the luxury of doing a quick math and knowing if the attack was going to be sucessful. They didnt have the perfect info we have (well, most times is perfect, as you exactly know the CV of your enemy 90% of the times you attack)


The game practically demands that you be passive until 1943...and all the real action happens in attrition...which makes the game unpalatable at times...like watching a movie with a bag over your head...it's happened but I didn't see it...



56ajax -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/12/2017 2:25:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

But in game the limiting factor for the soviet union is manpower.

We cannot say that the soviet in game have manpower surplus. The soviet have tank surplus, armement surplus but lack manpower all the time. The stocks are always zero.

So i'am not sūre the "exchange ratio" thing is a good idea in the current campaign. The soviet army need quality troops to compensate the lack of manpower.

I tend to agree on the manpower....it is now Turn 44 (April 42) and the manpower pool is hovering around the 40k mark. I am incrementally increasing the TOEs on my infantry units but shudder to think what will happen when the AXIS non-mud offensive starts.. I hang onto every town possible to keep manpower but it takes forever for a recaptured town to contribute... I have surplus of everything else except for partisans who actually do something...



56ajax -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/12/2017 2:53:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Tanks use less manpower than infantry, so throw your tank brigades at the enemy :)

johntoml56, how many tanks in the field do you have? What units?

On turn 43 I had 6787 AFV in the field (bear in mind it was played on an older version, and many things worked differently then).
Had about 18k at the end of 1943, that were reduced to 13k at the end of '44 summer. Rebuilt in three months to 22k in January 1945, after five weeks of an all-out offensive were down to 17k. 2048 lost on the last turn :)

Finished the war with 28 Tank Corps, 1 Tank Brigade, 6 Mechanized Corps, 62 Light SU Brigades, 20 Cavalry Corps, 55 Heavy Tank Regiments, 33 Heavy SU Regiments, 1 Light SU Regiment, and 27 Flame Tank Regiments.




Turn 44 AFVs in the field - 7198 (includes self propelled flack)

3 Tank Corp (uses less Tanks than the combined Brigades)
1 Tank Div
122 Tank Brigades
1 Motorised Brigade (because I could)
32 Motorcycle Regiments
22 Sep Tank Battalions (low on manpower but never gain experience if not in front line)
11 TD Batteries

In the pool (577 tanks being added each week)

T60 - 491, T70 - 13, Stuart - 119, Matilda - 220, Valentine - 504, lee 140, T34 - 2520, KV1 - 462



morvael -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/12/2017 7:56:17 AM)

Early tank corps is really small, but soon they will need a LOT of tanks. The same can be said about cavalry corps.
Try to build some more motorized/mechanized brigades, they need to gain experience so your Mechanized Corps will not start at paltry 2 CV like mine. It took ages to get them to 20+ CV :)
Motorcycle Regiments were (at the time I was playing) bad for the ARM pool, as the motorcycle squads were very expensive and gave little in return.

A passive period can see an increase of tanks in the pools, but you should use them up in the active period.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/12/2017 2:21:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael


Players are too passive, in other words game doesn't encourage you to attack constantly and burn your tank pool in this way.



To passive?..... you are correct

The game doesnt exactly encourage the Soviets to attack anyway. As stated before up until the end of August the Soviets take extra casualties. Added to the fact that good Germans will either surround or cause enough casualties to meet or exceed your replacements per turn. Thus the Soviets are clawing out a measly living turn to turn. When you do attack as the Soviets you take multiple 1,000's of dead casualties for maybe 100-150 Germans at best. Attack a regiment/brigade and you take the same amount of casualties as you would attacking a division (doesn't make sense, to me at least) Now if you are a Soviet attacking a German Armor division be prepared to be severely disappointed in the casualty report. If you ever get more than 15 tanks in a Soviet attack damaged or destroyed immediately go play the lottery. The losses to the armor is laughable imho. Only in defense are the Soviets rewarded with decent damage to the Germans and being passive is the only way to accomplish that damage. Otherwise the Soviets take crazy losses for just a "win" towards Guard Status and even that is limited in 41.

In the current state with current patch this game is highly weighted towards the Germans. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Play the Soviets at your own risk. Of course that is what I am seeing but I'm sure the community can give their views and opinions too. Maybe I'm wrong.





Stelteck -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/12/2017 2:44:26 PM)

I agree that it looks difficult to me to attrit the german by regular ground soviet assault on german divisions. (Considering that soviets cannot afford to loose much manpower and trucks).

Or at least i did not found the solution.

A solution is to manage a successful encerclement, which is better said than done. [:)]






RforRush -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/12/2017 3:39:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
In the current state with current patch this game is highly weighted towards the Germans. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Play the Soviets at your own risk. Of course that is what I am seeing but I'm sure the community can give their views and opinions too. Maybe I'm wrong.


You're right, it takes a look into AAR section to see how easily Axis advance in most games (Moscow couple months early than reality, easy Leningrad, 10+:1 casualties etc).

To people playing from release: was there time when game were weighted towards Soviets? I thought it was always pro-Axis because most people are playing them.



Stelteck -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/12/2017 4:53:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RforRush
To people playing from release: was there time when game were weighted towards Soviets? I thought it was always pro-Axis because most people are playing them.


Long time ago (2014) i played a game with a friend. We were both noobs. It was release 1.07.15. A completely different world.
I remembered having so much replacement as soviet that i had always hundred of thousands of men in storage whatever the looses. Also i was able to fill my division from zero to 100% in 2 turns with immediatly decent Combat Value.
i was clearly winning end 1941. The german was down to 1500 tanks.

This was the situation spring 1942 (The german were in very bad shape in spring and unable to do any offensive):
Leningrad was german but not moscow nor roskov and the front in the center was around smolensk.

[image]https://tof.cx/images/2017/10/12/edc0bf7c7629d4745137aa968e76c9a4.png[/image]

We stopped the game here.

It was funny but quite ridiculous from balance point of view.



No idea -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/12/2017 5:54:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

quote:

ORIGINAL: RforRush
To people playing from release: was there time when game were weighted towards Soviets? I thought it was always pro-Axis because most people are playing them.


Long time ago (2014) i played a game with a friend. We were both noobs. It was release 1.07.15. A completely different world.
I remembered having so much replacement as soviet that i had always hundred of thousands of men in storage whatever the looses. Also i was able to fill my division from zero to 100% in 2 turns with immediatly decent Combat Value.
i was clearly winning end 1941. The german was down to 1500 tanks.

This was the situation spring 1942 (The german were in very bad shape in spring and unable to do any offensive):
Leningrad was german but not moscow nor roskov and the front in the center was around smolensk.

[image]https://tof.cx/images/2017/10/12/edc0bf7c7629d4745137aa968e76c9a4.png[/image]

We stopped the game here.

It was funny but quite ridiculous from balance point of view.



In numeris terms the thing that has really changed since 1.07 is a big boost in german tanks. Now they lose far less, or production has been increased a lot. The number of men also seems too low. Were you playign with harsh winter? Soviet numbers also seem higher than patch 1.11 for spring 42.

Anyway, I think the game is now balanced so that both players can have a more or less equal chance of winning. It is not realistic, but it makes for funnier games.



Stelteck -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/12/2017 5:58:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea
In numeris terms the thing that has really changed since 1.07 is a big boost in german tanks. Now they lose far less, or production has been increased a lot. The number of men also seems too low. Were you playign with harsh winter? Soviet numbers also seem higher than patch 1.11 for spring 42.

Anyway, I think the game is now balanced so that both players can have a more or less equal chance of winning. It is not realistic, but it makes for funnier games.


Yes all options / harsh winter / Attack bonus.
The divisions were not filling the same too. I think there was no limitation around 80% TOE and rookie divisions were more efficient i think.



morvael -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/12/2017 7:05:38 PM)

We're really close to finish the next patch. It will alter balance a bit towards higher German tank losses.



Nuklearius -> RE: Surplus of Soviet Tanks (10/12/2017 10:52:28 PM)

test


EDIT:

Wow after stripping my post of all screenshots and numbers this apparently is the only thing I'm allowed to post here. What were the forum designers thinking?



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