RE: This game is BORKED

RE: This game is BORKED (Full Version)

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eggmansdaddy -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/11/2017 10:10:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget I need new dice as well! Sorry for hijacking, but the game IS BORKED INDEED, and I'm close to give it up (although probably not forever). Cross-posting from my AAR: Got the latest turn in my PBEM this morning. This time I'm close to rage-quit this USELESS TIME VAMPIRE OF A GAME. Launched another deliberate at Chungking. That city is surrounded and cut-off. Yes, it's good defensive terrain with forts build-up to level 6. However, it has been bombed and bombarded almost daily for many months by what I consider is a respectable concentration of air power and arty. The defenders should be out of supplies, punch drunk and demoralized. They have no tanks, they have no AT weapons to speak of, they have little arty, they are outnumbered. Yet they have withstood one deliberate attacks a couple of weeks ago - with attacking forces tailored to match the stacking limit - with heavy losses to the attackers but at least a fort reduction to level 5 to show for. This time I amassed forces totaling 260k hex troop level (limit is 160k). There are lots tanks, there are lots of engineers, there are supplies. All attacking units are 100% prepped, including four Corps HQs in situ and a Command HQ in range. Results: quote: Ground combat at Chungking (76,45) Japanese Deliberate attack Attacking force 195905 troops, 1869 guns, 1724 vehicles, Assault Value = 5788 Defending force 139877 troops, 509 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3663 Japanese adjusted assault: 2313 Allied adjusted defense: 9109 Japanese assault odds: 1 to 3 (fort level 5) Combat modifiers Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-), supply(-) Attacker: Japanese ground losses: 57848 casualties reported Squads: 1197 destroyed, 2485 disabled Non Combat: 356 destroyed, 862 disabled Engineers: 490 destroyed, 206 disabled Guns lost 422 (111 destroyed, 311 disabled) Vehicles lost 553 (170 destroyed, 383 disabled) Units destroyed 3 Allied ground losses: 2938 casualties reported Squads: 21 destroyed, 96 disabled Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 63 disabled Engineers: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled Guns lost 30 (1 destroyed, 29 disabled) Assaulting units: 110th Division 3rd Ind Engineer Regiment 19th Ind Engineer Regiment 15th Tank Regiment 37th Division 3rd Tank Regiment 3rd Tank Division 35th Division 22nd Ind Engineer Regiment 1st Cavalry Brigade 20th Ind Engineer Regiment 41st Division 30th Ind Engineer Regiment 24th Ind Engineer Regiment 23rd Tank Regiment 38th Ind Engineer Regiment 12th Tank Regiment 15th Division 2nd Ind.Mixed Brigade 70th Division 21st Ind Engineer Regiment 26th Division 9th Ind.Mixed Brigade 19th Tank Regiment 13th Division 8th Ind Engineer Regiment 11th Tank Regiment 116th Division 8th Ind.Mixed Brigade 7th Ind.Mixed Brigade 23rd Ind Engineer Regiment 9th Tank Regiment 1st Ind Engineer Regiment 25th Ind Engineer Regiment 7th Ind Engineer Regiment 69th Division 3rd Division 39th Ind Engineer Regiment 2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment 5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment 12th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion 11th Army 51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion 1st Army 9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment 15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment 1st Mortar Battalion 4th Mortar Battalion 3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment 6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment 10th Medium Field Artillery Regiment 2nd Ind. Field Artillery Regiment 11th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion Mongol Garrison Army 11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion 7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion 12th Army 12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion 13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion 8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion 6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion 4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion 52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion 14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment 4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment 13th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion Defending units: 32nd Chinese Corps 28th Chinese Corps 1st New Chinese Corps 89th Chinese Corps 51st Chinese Corps 53rd Chinese Corps 27th Chinese Corps 96th Chinese Corps 26th Chinese Corps 97th Chinese Corps 14th Chinese Corps 38th Chinese Corps 1st Chinese Corps 59th Chinese Corps 48th Chinese Corps 34th Separate Brigade Central Reserve 39th Group Army 49th AA Regiment 41st AA Regiment 16th Construction Regiment 4th Heavy Mortar Regiment 18th Artillery Regiment China Command 12th Construction Regiment CAF HQ 17th Group Army 31st Group Army 32nd Group Army 1st Chinese Base Force -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No combat modifiers for my leaders, experience, supplies, no HQ bonus although 5 HQs present. Not even a f***ing forts reduction this time. I'm torn between rage and despair. Maybe I should just abandon the siege of Chungking, abandon China, abandon the SRA the the POA, and hole-up in the Home Islands and wait for the Allied bombers to flatten the economy. Boy, am I depressed... Btw, regarding the OP - if the engagement between 41st Regiment and the 3rd SSVF Brigade is a "Knavey" (i.e. a historical engagement with "borked" results), do have more details about that historical battle? What I think is borked that you actually expected to take a heavily fortified urban area that has had months to prepare a defense and husband resources with a force ratio of less than 1.5 to 1 . Seriously? Try reading this article about force ratios...I think the section on breaching a fortified position might apply to your situation.... http://www.matrixgames.com/FORUMS/printable.asp?m=4174182 Good luck on your next assault! eggmansdaddy

Leandros -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/11/2017 10:22:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy What I think is borked that you actually expected to take a heavily fortified urban area that has had months to prepare a defense and husband resources with a force ratio of less than 1.5 to 1 . Seriously? Try reading this article about force ratios...I think the section on breaching a fortified position might apply to your situation.... http://www.matrixgames.com/FORUMS/printable.asp?m=4174182 Good luck on your next assault! eggmansdaddy Like I said....[:)] Fred

eggmansdaddy -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/11/2017 10:45:24 PM)
Yep-you said it[:)] eggmansdaddy

Leandros -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/12/2017 8:07:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy Yep-you said it[:)] eggmansdaddy Have the same problem with Tokyo. Not a chance to get the upper hand in manpower (intelligence says 600.000 troops in there) but the city has been under total siege for months now. Doesn't seen to mean a bit on the enemy supply situation. AA and CD are as heavy and effective as ever, as are his ground forces. Own bombers are massacred by AA, nightly naval bombardment with a dozen battleships has little effect (except on airfields where no planes are flying from anyway). Have tried strategic as well as tactical bombing (a couple of thousand bombers of all sorts), artillery and ground offensives. Maybe the atomic bomb was a good choice after all. But that is still a year on. Fred

LargeSlowTarget -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/12/2017 4:41:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy What I think is borked that you actually expected to take a heavily fortified urban area that has had months to prepare a defense and husband resources with a force ratio of less than 1.5 to 1 . Seriously? Try reading this article about force ratios...I think the section on breaching a fortified position might apply to your situation.... http://www.matrixgames.com/FORUMS/printable.asp?m=4174182 Good luck on your next assault! eggmansdaddy Wrong assumption, I did NOT actually expect to take Chungking. See follow-up posts in my AAR. I expected to take down the forts one or two levels and heavy but less lopsided casualties. I have attacked Chungking before with lesser forces and got better results than this time. You think it's normal that with that amount of preparation, tanks, arty and combat engineers there is no fort reduction at all? I'm prepared to accept heavy losses in return for reasonable results. Here the results are not reasonable. Fine, the Chinese have had months to dig-in. Well, I have them surrounded and pounded them for months with thousands of bomber sorties and heavy shelling. They should have suffered more losses and a fort reduction, even if dealing punishment to the IJA in return. My totally biased opinion.

LargeSlowTarget -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/12/2017 4:45:44 PM)
Accidential double post While I am at it. The well-known 3:1 ratio for attack over defense is based on equal combat strength of units of comparable size. This does not apply here. How many tanks do the Chinese have at Chungking? How many AT guns, medium and heavy arty? How many planes? How much supply? And are the Chinese units all at or near full strength? I think the combat strength of one IJA class A or class B division was rated as equaling three Chinese divisions that is one Corps. But well, in a realistic game I should not even get near Chungking for LOC reasons, so I'll stop ranting instead of gaming.

IdahoNYer -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/12/2017 4:50:32 PM)
What surprises me here is: 1. Why the Jpn assault value was REDUCED if the force is fully prepped. Due to overstacking perhaps? I would have thought you would have achieved at least a 1-1 attack with all that combat power - and then had a better chance to reduce forts. 2. The Chinese got a leader bonus! REALLY??!! Real world assault ratios are great to understand, but don't necessarily have bearing in this games crazy land warfare....

rustysi -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/12/2017 10:20:54 PM)
Sorry to say, but IIRC (its a game parameter), no reduction in fort level unless the odds are at least 1:1.

eggmansdaddy -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/12/2017 10:40:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leandros quote: ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy Yep-you said it[:)] eggmansdaddy Have the same problem with Tokyo. Not a chance to get the upper hand in manpower (intelligence says 600.000 troops in there) but the city has been under total siege for months now. Doesn't seen to mean a bit on the enemy supply situation. AA and CD are as heavy and effective as ever, as are his ground forces. Own bombers are massacred by AA, nightly naval bombardment with a dozen battleships has little effect (except on airfields where no planes are flying from anyway). Have tried strategic as well as tactical bombing (a couple of thousand bombers of all sorts), artillery and ground offensives. Maybe the atomic bomb was a good choice after all. But that is still a year on. Fred Night incendiary bombing and lots and lots of napalm with tac air. LeMay did way more damage with fire bombing than the A bomb did.... Good luck with your restructured air campaign. eggmansdaddy

GetAssista -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/12/2017 10:58:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rustysi Sorry to say, but IIRC (its a game parameter), no reduction in fort level unless the odds are at least 1:1. Combat engineers can squeeze in fort reduction under any odds. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire... ehm, I mean... AI lowering my forts in 1:100 or smth. Can be a bit frustrating )

rustysi -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/12/2017 11:27:41 PM)
quote: Combat engineers can squeeze in fort reduction under any odds. Japan has very few true independent combat engineer units, and to my knowledge none of them start in China. As a matter of fact throughout '42 there are exactly three that I can think of and two of them are only company sized. She does have a few independent engineer regiments which have roughly 16 IJA engineer devices 'attached', but these are TO&E additions and once eliminated they're not replaced. I've never seen a fort reduction by way of engineers integrated within combat units, only through odds levels. At least through a deliberate attack. Shock attacks are a different matter. Not that I suggest LST should shock attack as the odds and fort levels are not in his favor. Talk about a massacre.[:-]

MakeeLearn -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/13/2017 1:46:12 AM)
What would WitPAE style daily Combat Reports look like for Stalingrad? In urban terrain, more rubble = forts?

Leandros -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/13/2017 7:46:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy Night incendiary bombing and lots and lots of napalm with tac air. LeMay did way more damage with fire bombing than the A bomb did.... Good luck with your restructured air campaign. eggmansdaddy Thank you, but "normal" bombing - that is, dive-bombing and bombing from levels giving any visible results, is extremely costly. What seems to work, also from the perspective of acceptable losses, is bombing from an altitude of 25-30.000 feet - also for Avengers and fighter-bombers/fighters bombing. Night bombing results in most units going astray in the night, probably because of their low skill level. Now I am concentrating everything against "manpower" from high altitude. It seems to give results, lots of fires. Ten more B-29 squadrons are shortly about to arrive in Japan, too. Also stepping up naval bombardments and withdrawing/rotating ground units for rest and replenishment. They were totally "borked" after a faulty order of shock attacks a few days ago. Ground bombardment is continuing but land artillery units shall also be taken better care of. Royal Navy heavy units shall soon arrive in Tokyo Bay after their release from missions in the Dutch East Indies. HMS Queen Elizabeth and Renown have participated in the bombardments for quite some time. Well, I shouldn't hi-jack this thread anymore.....[&:]...... Fred

eggmansdaddy -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/25/2017 11:43:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget Accidential double post While I am at it. The well-known 3:1 ratio for attack over defense is based on equal combat strength of units of comparable size. This does not apply here. How many tanks do the Chinese have at Chungking? How many AT guns, medium and heavy arty? How many planes? How much supply? And are the Chinese units all at or near full strength? I think the combat strength of one IJA class A or class B division was rated as equaling three Chinese divisions that is one Corps. But well, in a realistic game I should not even get near Chungking for LOC reasons, so I'll stop ranting instead of gaming. You stated you launched an all -out assault....or so I thought, which implies trying to capture the city. I am sorry, clearly I mis-understood your intent, which was to conduct a limited assault to lower the fortification level....to what end? Also, what I do understand is that you need a higher ratio than 3:1 to take a fort or a fortified city for that matter. Troop quality does not necessarily trump fortifications. I do agree that having a city under seige should count for more than the results you got. eggmansdaddy

eggmansdaddy -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/25/2017 11:44:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leandros quote: ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy Night incendiary bombing and lots and lots of napalm with tac air. LeMay did way more damage with fire bombing than the A bomb did.... Good luck with your restructured air campaign. eggmansdaddy Thank you, but "normal" bombing - that is, dive-bombing and bombing from levels giving any visible results, is extremely costly. What seems to work, also from the perspective of acceptable losses, is bombing from an altitude of 25-30.000 feet - also for Avengers and fighter-bombers/fighters bombing. Night bombing results in most units going astray in the night, probably because of their low skill level. Now I am concentrating everything against "manpower" from high altitude. It seems to give results, lots of fires. Ten more B-29 squadrons are shortly about to arrive in Japan, too. Also stepping up naval bombardments and withdrawing/rotating ground units for rest and replenishment. They were totally "borked" after a faulty order of shock attacks a few days ago. Ground bombardment is continuing but land artillery units shall also be taken better care of. Royal Navy heavy units shall soon arrive in Tokyo Bay after their release from missions in the Dutch East Indies. HMS Queen Elizabeth and Renown have participated in the bombardments for quite some time. Well, I shouldn't hi-jack this thread anymore.....[&:]...... Fred LeMay would be dismayed that fire bombing isn't working. So am I. eggmansdaddy

PaxMondo -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/26/2017 4:12:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy LeMay would be dismayed that fire bombing isn't working. So am I. eggmansdaddy No idea why you think it isn't working ... it works quite effectively.

Leandros -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/26/2017 6:38:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo quote: ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy LeMay would be dismayed that fire bombing isn't working. So am I. eggmansdaddy No idea why you think it isn't working ... it works quite effectively. It might work - but effectively...? For weeks now several thousand planes (among them more than 100 B-29s) have bombed Tokyo. The AAA is equally effective as in the beginning and the "manpower" status has only shrunk to (144)17. At the same time a couple of dozen battleships and heavy cruisers have bombarded the city every night. The Japanese are as sprite as ever. So it seems, anyway. Fred

LargeSlowTarget -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/26/2017 12:18:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eggmansdaddy You stated you launched an all -out assault....or so I thought, which implies trying to capture the city. I am sorry, clearly I mis-understood your intent, which was to conduct a limited assault to lower the fortification level....to what end? Also, what I do understand is that you need a higher ratio than 3:1 to take a fort or a fortified city for that matter. Troop quality does not necessarily trump fortifications. I do agree that having a city under seige should count for more than the results you got. eggmansdaddy All-out for me means all available forces participate in the attack - but does not mean the attack is meant to capture the base. The purpose of deliberate attacks in order to lower the fort levels is to get better combat odds for future attacks. Lower fort levels will help to get better combat odds. To capture the base I need to lower the fort levels to 0 before I can hope to achieve the 3:1 combat odds required by the game mechanics for capture. So I need repeated deliberate attacks with fort reductions [and keep bombing the airfield to prevent fort (re)construction]. Forts can be reduced by a) combat engineers before the odds calculation and b) by odds of 1:1 or better.

PaxMondo -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/26/2017 1:22:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leandros ... probably because of their low skill level. ... Fred Fred, Pilots matter quite as much, if not more, than the aircraft being used. All of your B29 pilots should be +70/+70, if they are not, that explains your results. EXP/Skill matter a great deal. I should actually expect your B29 crews to be +80/+80. Historically, the allied B29 crews were VERY good, even for allied crews. 4E crews in general were very good. I don't see what mod/scen you are playing, so I cannot comment about flak other than to say the IJ, in tube count for stock scen, has something like only 20% of what the allies have AND they are less effective. Naval bombardments effects are mitigated by forts, Tokyo will be 9. manpower strat bombing is NOT mitigated by forts to my knowledge which is why it is so lethal. review several AAR's that went late game (greyjoy comes to mind right away), and review your tactics against those in the AAR's. If you are able to naval bombard Tokyo, then with appropriate tactics, Honshu should be a smoldering ruin in 30 days ... not just Tokyo.

Alfred -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/26/2017 2:42:15 PM)
Further to what PaxMondo has pointed out. In AE the real benefit of firebombing is not seen in the number of "manpower" centres damaged but in the number of other factory centres which are destroyed by the fires the much higher number of VPs awarded for destroyed factory centres compared to merely damaging them the additional supply cost expenditure involved in re-establishing the same industrial capacity from a destroyed situation compared to a damaged situation Alfred

Leandros -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/26/2017 3:03:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo Fred, Pilots matter quite as much, if not more, than the aircraft being used. All of your B29 pilots should be +70/+70, if they are not, that explains your results. EXP/Skill matter a great deal. I should actually expect your B29 crews to be +80/+80. Well, the B-29's have only been in the area a month or two (July-August), going straight into action. They arrived with 45-55 points, haven't improved much. But there are scores of good B-24 crews. quote: I don't see what mod/scen you are playing, so I cannot comment about flak other than to say the IJ, in tube count for stock scen, has something like only 20% of what the allies have AND they are less effective. Normal, historic. quote: Naval bombardments effects are mitigated by forts, Tokyo will be 9. manpower strat bombing is NOT mitigated by forts to my knowledge which is why it is so lethal. OK, at present they are at 4. quote: review several AAR's that went late game (greyjoy comes to mind right away), and review your tactics against those in the AAR's. If you are able to naval bombard Tokyo, then with appropriate tactics, Honshu should be a smoldering ruin in 30 days ... not just Tokyo. I'll see what MacArthur does. He is pondering some devious strategies. Alfred's posting was comforting. Maybe they shall crumble when I go all out. Engineers seem to work well, but I haven't used them much. It seems that everything from all over Hokkaido retreated into Tokyo as the island was gradually captured. Thanks! Fred

witpqs -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/26/2017 3:07:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leandros quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo Fred, Pilots matter quite as much, if not more, than the aircraft being used. All of your B29 pilots should be +70/+70, if they are not, that explains your results. EXP/Skill matter a great deal. I should actually expect your B29 crews to be +80/+80. Well, the B-29's have only been in the area a month or two (July-August), going straight into action. They arrived with 45-55 points, haven't improved much. But there are scores of good B-24 crews. The trick is to train up a sizable pool of pilots ahead of time and use them to replace the pilots in arriving squadrons. Fred

PaxMondo -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/27/2017 1:09:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: Leandros quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo Fred, Pilots matter quite as much, if not more, than the aircraft being used. All of your B29 pilots should be +70/+70, if they are not, that explains your results. EXP/Skill matter a great deal. I should actually expect your B29 crews to be +80/+80. Well, the B-29's have only been in the area a month or two (July-August), going straight into action. They arrived with 45-55 points, haven't improved much. But there are scores of good B-24 crews. The trick is to train up a sizable pool of pilots ahead of time and use them to replace the pilots in arriving squadrons. Fred Exactly ... what they arrive with doesn't matter. Trade them out. Get your VERY best pilots in those B29's. Those guys that arrived in the aircraft, those are the ferry pilots. Beach'em!!!

GetAssista -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/27/2017 9:45:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo Exactly ... what they arrive with doesn't matter. Trade them out. Get your VERY best pilots in those B29's. Those guys that arrived in the aircraft, those are the ferry pilots. Beach'em!!! Not good even as ferry ones. Higher experience helps minimize ops losses when transferring

Leandros -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/27/2017 10:33:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs The trick is to train up a sizable pool of pilots ahead of time and use them to replace the pilots in arriving squadrons. Well, they have been flying daily missions against the same target for 1-2 months now with little losses (and results) so there should have happened something with their proficiency. Morale is tops. I suppose there are limits for what can be put into the game. As a matter of fact (actually....) their results may have been good but it is difficult to read from game feedback. Is the fact (actuality...) that the enemy fortification level is only 4 an indication on this...? This is, after all, Tokyo with some hundred thousand troops in there. Fred The AAR: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3840708&mpage=18&key=&

Lecivius -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/27/2017 1:42:06 PM)
. [image]local://upfiles/26061/B924E42421DE40498B8D31EE4E1FF068.jpg[/image]

Yaab -> RE: This game is BORKED (10/27/2017 6:50:00 PM)
It is not borked - you just barely scratched its surface or lack fingertips Mk.I.

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