Possible problem with naval combat

Possible problem with naval combat (Full Version)

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Mike_B20 -> Possible problem with naval combat (5/18/2003 10:16:42 AM)
I just fought a surface action with a mixed force of 15 CA's and destroyers against a IJN force of BB and 2 destroyers. After exchanging shots for a while at long range the two IJN destoyers sank but almost all my force suffered heavy damage. The end result was the total allied force was heavily damaged by the BB, finally ending in the sinking of an allied CA and DD. Every time an allied ship fired at the BB it copped a salvo in reply. Isn't the combat simultaneous and isn't there some sort of opportunity cost in selecting targets, how could the BB fire on all allied ships at the same time? It seemed strange that the IJN BB ended up firing about 10 times as many salvos as the allied ships. A bug or do I just need to fire my taskforce commander?

Admiral_Arctic -> More info is needed but... (5/18/2003 8:43:09 PM)
Was it a night/day battle? What class of Jap BB? What ranges and number of rounds of combat? How many CA did you have? date? Don't forget some of those IJN BB carry many guns. And sometimes both broadsides are used in one combat. The Allies are at a disadvantage if the range doesn't get below 5000, after this the quick fire guns can do their share of damage. Once the IJN DD sank there was only one ship left in the TF and that might have resulted in the BB reacting to every shot. I don't think UV takes target acquition into account. Also if there was many combat rounds, the BB would have fired at its attackers, but not all your ships engaged simultaneously? Very often only half (or less) of your large force fires each round and this is one of the greatest frustrations of UV for you. The enemy "always" seems to fire first and with everything they have, while your incompetent ships fire casually (and inaccurately). But when you later think about it, it wasn't so one-sided after all. Why would you use USN CA against a Nagato class. Without torpeeeeedoes their 8inch guns won't do much damage. If it was a weaker Kongo you might have expected a bit more success as they have some weak spots. The USN CLs have toooorrpedoes and the ships are very eager to use them. It is still a big ask of your TF commander to win against the BB. Maybe you could have avoided the battle this turn. Those annoying Bombardment TF have to be stopped but only with an adequate force. If it was a bombardment TF you could have set a hex two hexes away with retire orders. After the BB TF left, your TF would return and still have air cover (assuming the base wasn't knocked out).

Mike_B20 -> (5/18/2003 9:51:25 PM)
As allied there is little to choose in the way of heavy surface forces early in scenario 17. It is a PBEM game and my opponent was throwing everything but the kitchen sink at Luganville. Sure I know CA's are not ideal to send against BB's but sometimes if opposing forces ends up in the same hex one doesn't have much choice in the matter. I had 2 or 3 surface taskforces of about 4-5 CA, a few CL and the rest destroyers in the area to contest whatever might show up. My post was meant to point out a possible problem with surface battles, ie the BB firing a salvo in response to each allied ship firing. Eg at 14000 yards each of 15 allied ships fired a salvo and the BB fired a salvo back at each allied ship. Thanks for the tips re tooorpedoes Admiral_Arctic but things worked out ok anyway, the BB was finished off later and some of the guys get R&R at Pearl. ;)

Admiral_Arctic -> (5/18/2003 10:29:10 PM)
I don't want to give advise to you during a PBEM game for a current battle unless it was posted in the After Action section. I did write up a few things, but it isn't really fair for both of you in a current game. But I will say one thing, don't throw away assets trying to stop something that doesn't need stopping. Sometimes you just have to accept your weakness and get bombarded. Unless he is invading now I wouldn't throw away capital ships.

Mike_B20 -> (5/18/2003 10:35:34 PM)
Admiral_Arctic, like I said, I wasn't throwing away capital ships. Things turned out fine. I'm posting here not in the hope of gaining incredible insights into the strategies and tactics of UV but rather to raise awareness of a possible bug in UV's surface combat routine. :)

Drongo -> (5/18/2003 11:23:59 PM)
Posted by Mike_B20 [QUOTE]Every time an allied ship fired at the BB it copped a salvo in reply. Every time an allied ship fired at the BB it copped a salvo in reply. Isn't the combat simultaneous and isn't there some sort of opportunity cost in selecting targets, how could the BB fire on all allied ships at the same time? It seemed strange that the IJN BB ended up firing about 10 times as many salvos as the allied ships. A bug or do I just need to fire my taskforce commander? [/QUOTE] Mike, IIRC, there is supposed to be some type of game limitation on the number of times a single ship can fire in 1 round. The one I'm thinking of was introduced quite some time ago. I was under the impression that a ship could only respond about 2 to 3 times per round, regardless of how many ships were firing at it. I thought it could be possible for a single ship to engage the number of targets you mentioned but only over the length of a substantial battle. Of course it's also possible that I have no idea what I'm talking about. :p If you still have the PBEM combat replay containing the battle, it might help to send it to Matrix and get their take on it.

U2 -> (5/19/2003 12:10:57 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drongo [B] If you still have the PBEM combat replay containing the battle, it might help to send it to Matrix and get their take on it. [/B][/QUOTE] and we all know where people should send their saves;)

Yamamoto -> Re: Possible problem with naval combat (5/19/2003 6:10:00 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike_B20 [B]Every time an allied ship fired at the BB it copped a salvo in reply. [/B][/QUOTE] That was the behavior in the first release of the game. I remember having 1 ships against 10 and it was an even fight in the number of shots fired. Totally rediculous. As far as I know, they fixed that in the very first patch. I haven't seen it since then. The only surface combat bug left is where the combat routine will occasionally get "stuck" when a shot hits a ship and the firing ship will keep firing (and always hitting) until the target sinks. That happens so rarely (1 in 300 maybe) that it doesn't really bother me. Yamamoto

Drongo -> (5/19/2003 10:39:55 AM)
Posted by U2 [QUOTE]and we all know where people should send their saves[/QUOTE] U poor bastard. :p

U2 -> (5/19/2003 11:10:17 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drongo [B]Posted by U2 U poor bastard. :p [/B][/QUOTE] :D

Cap Mandrake -> (5/19/2003 11:40:33 PM)
Couldn't this be the secondary guns of the BB firing? Surely the Jap BB had the equivalent of some 5-inch guns.

Mike_B20 -> (5/20/2003 12:27:00 PM)
Apologies U2, I sent you a copy of the combat save :) Sorry if the results are about what you'd expect and I've wasted your time. I was just a little shocked to see individual BB's put up such a fight, shredding a 15 ship taskforce. BB's were the bogeymen of the surface ships I suppose and are entitled to be very much feared in an engagement. When looking at what they are worth in points they are the equivalent of several CA's. I know I will think twice about going anywhere near single BB's in future with CA DD taskforce.

John Lansford -> (6/7/2003 8:03:54 PM)
I've been employing my surface TF's in raiding the Shortlands from Lunga, since the Japanese AI likes to stuff it full of transports with few escorts. However, I am still noticing the "let's shoot at one or two ships until they are completely obliterated" tactics that I thought had been fixed. I've had one DD pump 40 rounds of 5" shells into a small transport, even after the cruisers and North Carolina whacked it already. I've seen the St. Louis hit a tanker 70 times with repeated 6" shells. When the IJN did make an appearance (they're licking their wounds after my carriers worked over their cruisers recently), the same thing happened. A CL/DD group had each of the ships hit by over 30 rounds from my cruisers and destroyers, without managing to fire back at all. I don't mind slaughtering ships in a fair fight, but these engagements don't look like the kind of battles I was expecting or I remember from earlier versions. It's almost as if the IJN is reluctant to fight, and poorly trained as well.

Admiral_Arctic -> (6/7/2003 8:49:46 PM)
Once a TF with vulnerable ships like APs, TKs, or CVs scatters, you have to hunt down the ships before the end of the combat. The escort usually engages you, but if you sink that, the other ships are normally only sighted singularly, hence the overkill. In the first round you usually get a chance to fire on CV or AP.

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