Initial Impressions

Initial Impressions (Full Version)

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76mm -> Initial Impressions (11/5/2017 9:25:13 AM)
Because I really liked Quadriga and am interested in the topic of this game, I went ahead an picked it up. I've played a few games now and have a few comments/questions: 1) First, it is a cool game on a cool topic, and generally works well, although I have had some frustrating moments. 2) Given that most players probably have no idea about types of ships in the game, or galley tactics, I think it would have been helpful to include sections on these topics in the manual. 3) Is there different depths of water in the game? So far I've only seen a uniform depth. Seems like it would be a good idea to have different depths so that smaller ships might have some advantage in some circumstances. Similarly, is there any disadvantage to getting right next to shore, such as a risk of being swept on-shore? 4) I don't really like how ships are "targeted" in the game. For instance, in the screenshot below I wanted my galley (circled in red) to ram the enemy ship amidships (black arrow): [image]http://www.vervecom.net/games/MN01.png[/image] Unfortunately, nothing I could do would make my ship head in that direction, so it hit here instead: [image]http://www.vervecom.net/games/MN02.png[/image] Was that a ram? I have no idea, there is no indication or whether a ram occurred, or if it did, if it was a failure. Other times ships rammed at a similar point and it sunk the enemy ship, so I don't know... 5) In the same game, a third of my fleet got "stuck" and was immobile for most of the game: [image]http://www.vervecom.net/games/MN03.png[/image] In the front of the line was a captured, crippled enemy ship (red circle) which could not move out of the way of my column. For some reason, none of the other ships would move for the rest of the game--I tried sending them forwards, backwards, sideways, but they just sat there, a perfect target for enemy ships. Very frustrating...what is going on here? 6) Another "what is going on here" moment: [image]http://www.vervecom.net/games/MN04.png[/image] What is my ship (circled in red) doing? It seems to have parked itself on top of an enemy ship without sinking it? 7 In most of my games so far, most of my ships have ended up crippled or immobilized. Do I understand correctly that to minimize the chance of a ship being crippled, I should have it in "ram" mode when moving towards a head-on collision with enemy ships? What are the chances of being crippled in that case?

SnuggleBunnies -> RE: Initial Impressions (11/5/2017 11:37:03 AM)
4) is my main issue with the game. Being unable to target ships stuck between hexes is extremely frustrating.

Niessuh -> RE: Initial Impressions (11/5/2017 11:48:57 AM)
Starting with 6) this is a bug. There was a problem with rotating ships like this crippled one having undetected collisions at certain angles. It will be solved at the next patch. About 3)there are no depths of water. Even the crews of the heaviest ships could take out their ship from a beach when they run aground for passing the night 4) that Carthague ship trapped between your ships cannot be rammed in its current position. You could still try boarding if you put your ship in grappling mode 5) that is a perfect trap indeed, unless the captured ship unlocks the column everyone else is trapped. 7) Best way to avoid being crippled is to avoid frontal encounters. This is specially important if the enemy have superior quality, this is the most important element in the raking test. It does not matter if you are in grappling or in ramming mode.

76mm -> RE: Initial Impressions (11/5/2017 11:55:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Turnopia 5) that is a perfect trap indeed, unless the captured ship unlocks the column everyone else is trapped. Why can't my ships move? Or turn? Or back up? Would it be the same result if the front ship was an enemy ship, and not a captured ship? Also, what do you mean unless the captured ship "unlocks"--what should the captured ship be doing?

Niessuh -> RE: Initial Impressions (11/5/2017 1:17:45 PM)
Turning must be made when the ship is centered in a hexagon, until it reaches it can not be done. Therefore to release the ships stuck in this chain collision they must be able to reach the destination hexes, so the captured ship must leave free space for this to happen. If that ship would be an enemy, the situation could not be resolved until it was eliminated or its position abandoned. In any case long rows of ships fastened to each other are not a good idea. on 4) and similar issues, I have always seen it as a situation where the ship between hexes cannot be rammed because the nearby friendly ships that prevent him from centering make close ramming dangerous, so they obstruct the ramming maneuver, Certainly this is an abstraction and I understand the frustration of not being able to ram a ship in such a situation.

jack54 -> RE: Initial Impressions (11/5/2017 2:42:13 PM)
Indeed frustrating... here none of the trapped ships can be rammed; they're all between hexes. Maybe a low percentage chance that ships work themselves free from traps and a low percentage they can be rammed could help. Fun Game but with a few frustrations. (Snip from 76mm post) [image]local://upfiles/25856/FA03AD38EE924412BA89111664C60E20.jpg[/image]

76mm -> RE: Initial Impressions (11/5/2017 4:22:05 PM)
Also, I have to say that I really don't like the camera controls...I cannot get pitch or rotate to work with the mouse at all, have to use hotkeys, and rotating works differently than in most games.

zakblood -> RE: Initial Impressions (11/5/2017 4:58:24 PM)
for camera controls, just hold down your middle mouse buttons which does pan, tilt / all the way up to overhead views etc [image]local://upfiles/43185/E945C9B13956426B9BC7F069894549C5.jpg[/image] at first i found it different, but now it's moves fine, with practice, but yes not a lot like most games, so it's different i'll give you that point, i play with keyboard with the left and mouse with the right and find the combo of both works very well, but still a odd keyboard command is needed when i move out of shot etc

zakblood -> RE: Initial Impressions (11/5/2017 5:05:15 PM)
command and camera control for me is good, but a learning curve is needed to master it and get it how you wish it to be, for me more basic tweaks are needed as i'd like to be able to zoom in more and be at a more free'er angles at times, so total camera freedom etc [image]local://upfiles/43185/5CB8C4BA249F46FE91D743C171429C48.jpg[/image]

SnuggleBunnies -> RE: Initial Impressions (11/5/2017 6:07:22 PM)
I still think being unable to ram those ships is a bit much. So many of those ships are perfect targets. It's especially hard to swallow when enemy ships are fouled up on each other, in which case there would be no hesitation about ramming full speed ahead.

76mm -> RE: Initial Impressions (11/5/2017 6:50:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SnuggleBunnies I still think being unable to ram those ships is a bit much. So many of those ships are perfect targets. It's especially hard to swallow when enemy ships are fouled up on each other, in which case there would be no hesitation about ramming full speed ahead. At least one of the ships in my column could be rammed--see the bottom ship. I have no idea why that one could be rammed and not others. At this point I really don't understand how ramming (or many other features) work--you can only ram a ship if it is in the middle of the hex? How does that work with the WEGO game system?

Niessuh -> RE: Initial Impressions (11/6/2017 7:39:36 AM)
I think you are mixing the situations displayed at 4) and 5) , maybe I did not express myself correctly [;)] You could perfectly ram any of the aligned ships in those long lines, have in mind that ships that ram do a test and this test could fail, but the ramming attempt is done! the only position where you couldn't use ramming is when the enemy ship is positioned exactly between two hexes, where in case of a colision both bows touch at the tip. When this tip-tip colision happens ramming could not be successful. But this could be changed if needed.

drewgalander -> RE: Ships trapped in line (11/6/2017 8:01:30 AM)
I wonder whether the answer to this is that ships trapped in this way are allowed a random chance to drift clear - I don't know what reasonable odds would be but even a 1 in 4 chance would be better than being stuck for the whole battle. If a positive result they would drift... say one hex clear of the "trap". This would at least give them the possibility - through the action of wind and waves - to drift free of the "trap". They would still be disadvantaged for a while as even when freed they would initially be stationary so would have to manoeuvure away from the other ships in the column and attempt to get up to some sort of speed. Given that it is unlikely all your ships would break free at once it would still be a big discouragement for admirals to get into this predicament in the first place!

76mm -> RE: Ships trapped in line (11/6/2017 6:27:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drewgalander I wonder whether the answer to this is that ships trapped in this way are allowed a random chance to drift clear - I don't know what reasonable odds would be but even a 1 in 4 chance would be better than being stuck for the whole battle. If a positive result they would drift... say one hex clear of the "trap". This would at least give them the possibility - through the action of wind and waves - to drift free of the "trap". Why should they be trapped at all? Why couldn't they just turn? I think Turnopia is saying that it is a game coding issue, not intended to reflect anything real.

jack54 -> RE: Ships trapped in line (11/6/2017 7:27:42 PM)
I would be in favor of a 1 hex side turn without movement forward this could represent a lack of momentum with full movement next turn. BTW as per Daniel's post I stand corrected about image five ships not being ram-able. It also makes sense to me that bow on bow rams don't work.

Niessuh -> RE: Ships trapped in line (11/7/2017 7:19:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jack54 I would be in favor of a 1 hex side turn without movement forward this could represent a lack of momentum with full movement next turn. Somethisg like this could be a nice solution indeed, really hard to do it but worth a try quote: ORIGINAL: jack54 BTW as per Daniel's post I stand corrected about image five ships not being ram-able. It also makes sense to me that bow on bow rams don't work. All ships trapped in this line are ram-able. The only way to avoid being rammed is when the ship is exactly in the middle between hexes, because a bow-bow collision is always unsucessfull. I could change that too and make ramming possible in this situation if the targeted ship is static

KOB001 -> RE: Ships trapped in line (11/8/2017 11:58:42 AM)
It's a good game & the AI is very good especially when the fighting gets close & personal. However there are a few issues additional to the ones already reported (the difficulty targeting rams/grapples are especially immersion breaking)... (i) Your commanders will abandon a sinking vessel... but NOT a crippled or immobilized one! (ii) I'm surprised by the lack of a beached mechanic. You already have the shorelines, it just remains for them to be used. Historically surprised ships may start a battle beached (Aegospotami) or beaten ships routed/driven onto the shore (Battle of Naupactus). (iii) This brings another issue... a lack of human moral. Presumably a ship with all or most of its Marines shot up is going to be nervous about carrying on or initiating another fight! Additionally I don't know if it's possible to have a "panic" mechanic if nearby friendly ships see their friends sunk, burnt alive or bloodily captured but if it is I'd strongly consider implementing it. (iv) Captured ships can be given move orders & even given ram orders? I might be mistaken but it seems to me that the (few) victorious Marines would probably be busy policing the captured rowers & those rowers are not going to help ram their own side! Additionally if a ship was about to be captured &/or recaptured you'd expect some sabotage to take place. Perhaps captured ships should just be considered immobilized for the rest of the battle... for simplicity sake? (v) The strange "traffic jams" reported in the posts above could be a way of representing the chaos caused by fouled oars & minor collisions (the Battle of Rhium would be an example of such a thing occurring) however perhaps a way to highlight & explain this to a player (a tag of "confusion" perhaps) and a chance for the 'stuck in a traffic jam' effect to eventually end would be in order. (vi) Does wind only effect ships with sails? I'd expect strong winds to have some effect on large floating pieces of wood. (vii) Likewise, a tidal mechanic may be a useful feature (especially if an editor is to be released). Presumably it could be represented using the wind mechanics the game already possesses but just program this "wind" to effect all ships equally? (viii) Is there any major advantage to keeping your prow & ram pointing towards the enemy rather than your rear? In reality keeping your vulnerable stern away from the enemy was almost as important as keeping your vulnerable sides away however in this game it seems that you can only be rammed from the sides? So, in effect, your stern is actually quite well protected.

Niessuh -> RE: Ships trapped in line (11/8/2017 5:12:45 PM)
some interesting points here quote: (i) Your commanders will abandon a sinking vessel... but NOT a crippled or immobilized one! it's something problematic indeed, but worse that losing four range command capabilities and commander bonuses? depends on the situation quote: (ii) I'm surprised by the lack of a beached mechanic. You already have the shorelines, it just remains for them to be used. Historically surprised ships may start a battle beached (Aegospotami) or beaten ships routed/driven onto the shore (Battle of Naupactus). (iii) This brings another issue... a lack of human moral. Presumably a ship with all or most of its Marines shot up is going to be nervous about carrying on or initiating another fight! Additionally I don't know if it's possible to have a "panic" mechanic if nearby friendly ships see their friends sunk, burnt alive or bloodily captured but if it is I'd strongly consider implementing it. the Carthaginian ships in the Ebro battle are beached, to reflect that problem the first turn they begin at half speed. About lack of moral is linked to the fact that the battles should conclude relatively quickly, in this game I want to reflect the heart of the battle and finish it once it is decided, which is when the ships begin to flee and run aground. But maybe a mecanism that allows a ship to run aground when you want to save it in desperate situation could be interesting quote: (iv) Captured ships can be given move orders & even given ram orders? I might be mistaken but it seems to me that the (few) victorious Marines would probably be busy policing the captured rowers & those rowers are not going to help ram their own side! Additionally if a ship was about to be captured &/or recaptured you'd expect some sabotage to take place. Perhaps captured ships should just be considered immobilized for the rest of the battle... for simplicity sake? Captured ships do not have marines now nor are able to pass cruise speed, its offensive capabilities are quite limited. quote: (v) The strange "traffic jams" reported in the posts above could be a way of representing the chaos caused by fouled oars & minor collisions (the Battle of Rhium would be an example of such a thing occurring) however perhaps a way to highlight & explain this to a player (a tag of "confusion" perhaps) and a chance for the 'stuck in a traffic jam' effect to eventually end would be in order. totally agree! the stacking effect and the "half speed" labels is quite discouraging by itself, but perhaps we could advice actively about it. quote: (vi) Does wind only effect ships with sails? I'd expect strong winds to have some effect on large floating pieces of wood. (vii) Likewise, a tidal mechanic may be a useful feature (especially if an editor is to be released). Presumably it could be represented using the wind mechanics the game already possesses but just program this "wind" to effect all ships equally? Those are interesting mechanics but I do not think that applying these rules to most scenarios are a good idea, especially because it would add chaos to situations that are quite chaotic by themselves. Maybe as special rules in some scenarios (in the historical scenarios only the Aegadian Islands battle has strong winds). Almost all battles were fought in calm waters. quote: (viii) Is there any major advantage to keeping your prow & ram pointing towards the enemy rather than your rear? In reality keeping your vulnerable stern away from the enemy was almost as important as keeping your vulnerable sides away however in this game it seems that you can only be rammed from the sides? So, in effect, your stern is actually quite well protected. In frontal encounters you cannot be rammed but your oars can be raked and you can be grappled and boarded! and if you show the stern you can be raked or boarded without the opportunity to do the same.

KOB001 -> RE: Ships trapped in line (11/8/2017 11:00:49 PM)
quote: it's something problematic indeed, but worse that losing four range command capabilities and commander bonuses? depends on the situation Make it selectable then? On several occasions now I've had entire squadrons effectively immobilized because the commander ship hasn't sunk. I've then been reduced to "launching" "long range rams/grapples" out of that command circle & then waiting for the ships to cruise back to my command circle, at which point I can launch another attack... which is a bit on the silly side & somewhat immersion breaking. quote: About lack of moral is linked to the fact that the battles should conclude relatively quickly, in this game I want to reflect the heart of the battle and finish it once it is decided, which is when the ships begin to flee and run aground. But maybe a mecanism that allows a ship to run aground when you want to save it in desperate situation could be interesting This makes a lot of sense now. Rather than depicting an entire Naval battle you're depicting the decisive bit. So my example of the Naupactus battle would probably be best depicted by two distinct decisive actions. The "fleeing, getting driven onto the shore" phase happens post game. quote: Captured ships do not have marines now nor are able to pass cruise speed, its offensive capabilities are quite limited. Certainly true... but how are the ships moving at all? And immediately? Often these ancient battles could be very brutal for captured rowers, the Spartans just tended to brutally execute them for instance. I therefore can't see how captured ships would move in any meaningful way. Besides doesn't dealing with prisoners & the retrieval of captured ships actually contradict the games focus on the "heart of the battle"? quote: Those are interesting mechanics but I do not think that applying these rules to most scenarios are a good idea, especially because it would add chaos to situations that are quite chaotic by themselves. Maybe as special rules in some scenarios (in the historical scenarios only the Aegadian Islands battle has strong winds). Almost all battles were fought in calm waters. Oh no you wouldn't apply them to most battles (although, saying that, most of the one's I've read about do seem to feature "chaos" caused by winds or tides at some point). As you say, it's for historical scenarios primarily (although wind is a selectable feature for skirmishes). However what I am pointing out is, that in those scenarios, wind should have effects on ships (even those without sails). In particular the smaller & lighter ships would struggle to maintain their desired course & speed. quote: ... and if you show the stern you can be raked or boarded without the opportunity to do the same. Good news! After reading the manual again, I find out you'd already stated this! Perhaps a note in the tutorial to highlight this key tactical feature to the player?

76mm -> RE: Ships trapped in line (11/10/2017 6:24:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Turnopia quote: ORIGINAL: jack54 I would be in favor of a 1 hex side turn without movement forward this could represent a lack of momentum with full movement next turn. Somethisg like this could be a nice solution indeed, really hard to do it but worth a try I hope that you fix this somehow, I really don't like it when game mechanics intrude into a game so much...

76mm -> RE: Initial Impressions (11/10/2017 6:26:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Turnopia ]the only position where you couldn't use ramming is when the enemy ship is positioned exactly between two hexes, where in case of a colision both bows touch at the tip. When this tip-tip colision happens ramming could not be successful. But this could be changed if needed. Yeah, I really hope that this is fixed as well, for the same reason mentioned in my previous post...

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