Unit recovery from disablements (Full Version)

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JoV -> Unit recovery from disablements (11/14/2017 11:46:04 AM)

Hi guys

I'm sure this has been dealt with ad nauseum, but I am still really confused as the mechanics of unit recovery in this game (i.e. disablements) [:)]

In my current game, and previous ones, I've found the Japanese 65th Brigade is very 'squishy', in that it tends to take a lot of disablements in combat. It also seems to recover exceedingly slowly. Example from my current game is below. On the blue line it was part of a direct attack (which went very badly [:D]) The leader is leadership 48 Inspiration 53 Land 59 Admin 69 (I changed their starting commander for a slightly better one just after the attack).

[image]https://i.imgur.com/PcI32D1.jpg[/image]

There is a lot of supply in the hex and a HQ (the 14th). By comparison, another division involved in the attack has rebounded quickly.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/I4T8LZe.jpg[/image]

Just wondering what factor, or combination of factors, is influencing the marked difference in unit recovery? Should I just replace the leader with an infinitely better one, or is the units low experience also a factor? Any suggestions appreciated [:D]



BBfanboy -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/14/2017 2:01:10 PM)

How much other support is available in hex?
Are their other units ahead of it on the list (by database index number) that are soaking up the support?



Lokasenna -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/14/2017 4:24:07 PM)

I think unit size is a factor, although

I think disruption, fatigue, and morale probably also play into it. I don't have a citation on that, I just think that they do. In your screenshots, the division has less damage to those than the brigade. The division also has more experience. I wonder if that helps - it helps with a lot of other (combat) stuff.

It's also worth noting that the division has far more built-in support units compared to the brigade. If there is any kind of support shortage in the hex, the brigade would feel it more keenly than the division.

Lastly, a tip - you should divide your division into 1/3's for fastest recovery from disablements and fastest replacements (each 1/3 will take replacements at the same rate, making for 3x the rate).



Aurorus -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/14/2017 5:15:27 PM)

Support is important to recovery. The unit should have more support than necessary for each device: i.e. a green support number. High morale, low fatigue, and no disruption are also important. So, stacked in the same hex as an HQ or base force is important. Being in a base also helps: the larger the base the better. Also, it seems to me that the recovering devices check is similar and uses the same mechanics as the receive replacements check. Therefore, you want to be in a large base with 20k+ supplies. If you can trace a good supply path (major roads and railines) to other bases with 20K, this will also improve recovery time, in my experience. Finally, tests by various players have shown that unit commander administration has no effect on recovery of disabled squads. However, I firmly believe that the administration rating of a local army HQ commander will improve recovery rates for disabled squads.

Hope all of the helps. The 65th brigade will recover squads at the same rate as any other unit under the same conditions. It is a "squishy" in the sense that it a light brigade without any heavy support. This also makes it a good amphibious assault unit, for assaults on larger enemy positions, once the amphibious bonus expires. It is also entirely air-mobile. It is one of the most versatile units in the Japanese early-war arsenal and a very important LCU. It should see a lot of action in 1942, so you want to keep it in good shape and place it in positions where it can recover its devices quickly.



JoV -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/15/2017 8:30:28 AM)

There is a lot of support in the hex, so I suspect it might be because of the internal support within the formation. Never imagined it had anything to do with the database index number though [:D]

It only increased in another 1 AV last turn, whilst the division alongside it jumped 8 points, so have accepted the only feasible option is to move it out of the hex, let it rest till it recovers and move it back in. In a previous game I nearly shattered the unit through repeated attacks, and want to avoid it here since, as you say, it has a lot of late war uses.

Fwiw, I feel that splitting units to accelerate recovery is a little gamey, but each to their own. Wouldn't complain if my opponent did it anyway.

I checked the database number, and is indeed higher than the other formations present.

Many thanks for the replies [:)]



Barb -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/15/2017 11:23:10 AM)

I think the primary culprit here is the Experience of the unit? It takes more time for a medicore unit to get replacements working effectively than for an elite unit to recover the effectiveness even if the replacements are about the same in skill.



BBfanboy -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/15/2017 1:43:04 PM)

Just a week or two ago in another thread Alfred said unit Experience does not affect recovery time.

I had been trying to make the point that experienced units seem to be less affected by malaria so they have fewer squads to recover in the first place, and fewer squads falling ill why others are recovering - which would look like faster recovery.



spence -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/16/2017 2:23:49 AM)

quote:

I had been trying to make the point that experienced units seem to be less affected by malaria so they have fewer squads to recover in the first place, and fewer squads falling ill why others are recovering - which would look like faster recovery.


Amazing how mosquitos always seek out the unenthusiastic draftees



BBfanboy -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/16/2017 5:04:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

I had been trying to make the point that experienced units seem to be less affected by malaria so they have fewer squads to recover in the first place, and fewer squads falling ill why others are recovering - which would look like faster recovery.


Amazing how mosquitos always seek out the unenthusiastic draftees

Newbies are sloppy about things like repellant and mosquito nets. When I was in Egypt we had to cajole the newcomers to take their quinine tablets every day.



Lowpe -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/16/2017 1:42:11 PM)

Compare the TOE of the two units.

I am betting the division has twice as many subunits in their TOE each with a chance to repair daily assuming a normal distribution of disablements.

Aurorus has done excellent work here -- search the forum for his posts on the subject.



Alfred -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/16/2017 3:23:34 PM)

Post screenshots of the two units.  Those screenshots are much more informative than a tracker screenshot.

Alfred



Lokasenna -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/16/2017 5:16:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Compare the TOE of the two units.

I am betting the division has twice as many subunits in their TOE each with a chance to repair daily assuming a normal distribution of disablements.

Aurorus has done excellent work here -- search the forum for his posts on the subject.


From memory, the 65th Brigade is almost entirely infantry, a matching number (I think) of support squads, and some light artillery/AA. No engineers, no tanks, no combat engineers.

The division is made up of more "subunits" of things.



JoV -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/17/2017 5:59:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Post screenshots of the two units.  Those screenshots are much more informative than a tracker screenshot.

Alfred


This is the 65th Bde. It's just reached Clark Field and will be set into rest mode

[image]https://i.imgur.com/cS3HmQh.jpg[/image]

And the 48th ID, which has been in bombardment mode for about a week now.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/nnLGynh.jpg[/image]



BBfanboy -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/17/2017 8:06:15 PM)

Only thing that I notice is that the prep for Manila is much lower on the 65th than on the 48th. That would explain the tendency to suffer more in combat, but I don't know if it has anything to do with recovery while they were in Manila hex. I presume the enemy owns Manila and you own Clark?



JoV -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/18/2017 1:02:05 AM)

Yep. My opponent chose to defend Manila over Bataan. Which is curious. I've not seen that happen before [:)]



Lowpe -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/18/2017 3:26:39 PM)

The division has twice the number of devices that the brigade has...that is the lion's share of your answer. The division is 75% av of strength compared (from 42) to the brigades 67% (from 53).




JoV -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/18/2017 10:23:59 PM)

Yes, I thought it might strongly relate to that.

They are currently resting at Clark, receiving foot rubs and sponge baths. Will watch their recovery closely, although their AV has not increased a jot in two days now [>:]



BBfanboy -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/18/2017 11:11:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JoV

Yes, I thought it might strongly relate to that.

They are currently resting at Clark, receiving foot rubs and sponge baths. Will watch their recovery closely, although their AV has not increased a jot in two days now [>:]

Some troops seem to have a "maintenance rating" of 4 ...



Alfred -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/19/2017 5:33:43 AM)

One needs to be very cautious in accepting advice regarding recovery of disabled devices in specific circumstances as this is an area very much under the hood with minimal dev commentary.  It is complicated by the fact that disabled devices result from different conditions precedent and it is sometimes necessary for the condition precedent to be resolved first before work can proceed to recover the disabled device itself.

1.  No dev has ever mentioned that unit experience or unit size is a factor in disabled devices recovering.

Edit: Have found a key dev (BigJ62) comment which corrects the experience factor. The following quote is dated 22 April 2010

1. friendly base with greater than 2x supply helps and having excess support at that base plus any corps HQ in range with a leader with high admin helps.
2. unit with 1x+ supply helps
3. rest mode really helps
4. unit with high exp helps
5. no enemy in hex helps
6. temperate hex really helps
None of these are manditory but they help.

Through it all though thare are lots of randoms that determine whether or not you can repair any devices and when I stepped into the code to watch a HQ try to repair its disabled squads I'll be damned if it didn't fail one of the randoms blowing any chance of repair and this was a unit that had really good chance at it for that turn so, it is not guaranteed.



2.  LCU devices will be disabled in the following circumstances

  • when initially received as a replacement device
  • as a result of the LCU having too high a fatigue level
  • as a result of any combat
  • lack of supply
  • insufficient support squads


3.  Both fatigue and disruption are conditions precedent in that whilst both generate their own separate (independent of the disabled device status) input into the combat algorithms, their recovery has higher priority than disabled device recovery.  Fatigue automatically increases from any activity other than sitting still.  The climate and weather zone has varying impact on the gain and removal of fatigue.  Whether located inside or outside of a base, together with the size of the base, are also factors taken into account in determining the fatigue level of a LCU.  Being on board a ship also increases fatigue.  Fatigue reduction is also very dependent on the LCU itself having both adequate supply and support squads.  Being in rest mode also assists.  Disruption results from combat and an opposed river crossing.

What this means is that some of the factors which only reduce the conditions precedent fatigue and disruption, are only indirectly involved in disabled device recovery.  This complicates the issue.

4.  The two most relevant leader attributes for recovering disabled devices are admin and inspiration.  Admin is indirect and applied differently by the type of unit to reduce fatigue and disruption; the HQ leader utilising the support squads whereas the actual unit leader utilising the organic unit supply.  Inspiration is used by the unit leader for devices disabled due to fatigue.

5.  It is important to realise that support squads are only shared when located at a friendly base.


The screenshots show a marked difference in the inspiration rating of the two direct leaders.  That together with die rolls is a significant factor in the two results.

Although both units are set to receiving replacements, the OP indicated that the 65th suffered in combat.  That strongly suggests that it has received more replacements than the 48th and consequently has all those disabled replacement devices to be fed into the recovery algorithms.

Alfred



Lokasenna -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/19/2017 6:08:14 PM)

Unless they are repaired at the same time as they are received from replacements, my experience with replacement devices is that they arrive repaired - not disabled.



rustysi -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/19/2017 8:21:09 PM)

quote:

It also seems to recover exceedingly slowly.


Keep in mind that a disabled gun may be 'repaired' with parts, and as long as these are available it could be done rather quickly. A disabled infantry squad is a wounded soldier and they take longer to heal with a time frame that is not easily altered. It may also be an abstract in assimilating 'replacements' into the unit as opposed to waiting for the injured to recover. Its my experience that infantry devices are the last to recover, and it takes time. A heavily damaged infantry unit may be out of the line for months for recovery. Just look at the Marines IRL. Quite honestly this makes sense to me.



Alfred -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/19/2017 11:36:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Unless they are repaired at the same time as they are received from replacements, my experience with replacement devices is that they arrive repaired - not disabled.


Receipt of "replacement" devices can occur from several different pulses within the housekeeping phase at the end of the turn. The two biggest "replacement" streams are from upgrading devices and straight out replacement to bring the unit back up towards TOE.

Page 261 of the manual refers to receiving upgraded devices on the same ratio basis as the superseded devices. IOW if the LCU had 7 ready and 5 disabled obsolescent 18 pdr guns, upon upgrading to 25 pdr guns one would receive 7 ready and 5 disabled, a 1:1 ratio. However I believe that passage in the manual to have been altered after printing but before release of AE. In comments dated 16 and 18 Oct 2009, BigJ62 clearly stated that keeping tabs on these disabled obsolescent devices was problematical and thus AE returns all upgraded devices in a ready state irrespective of how many of the obsolescent devices were in a disabled state. Certainly my experience with regard to upgrades is in line with BigJ62's comments.

I don't have my housekeeping phase notes with me at the moment but my recollection is that AE follows the order listed in s.15.1 of the manual. The manual indicates that the relevant pulses in order are:

(1) expend supply points to maintain LCUs
(4) adjust LCU fatigue
(7) add replacements to LCUs
(9) perform LCU device upgrades

This order indicates the straight out replacements stream occurs after the recovery of disabled devices actions have occurred. My experience bears out this interpretation as I see newly arrived straight out replacement devices to be in a disabled state whereas upgraded devices received are always 100% in the ready state.

Alfred



Ian R -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/21/2017 6:40:37 AM)

Alfred.

Is there a difference between not-squad devices - tanks, guns - where you get a new one out of the finite supply, on the one hand; and on the other, squad type devices, where, to summarise perhaps too briefly, what you in effect get is a squad upgrade to the new version, reflecting the issue of more automatic weapons, etc?.







Alfred -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/26/2017 1:29:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Alfred.

Is there a difference between not-squad devices - tanks, guns - where you get a new one out of the finite supply, on the one hand; and on the other, squad type devices, where, to summarise perhaps too briefly, what you in effect get is a squad upgrade to the new version, reflecting the issue of more automatic weapons, etc?.

Sorry, I'm finding it difficult to understand your question.

If the question is "does the rate of recovery depend on the type of device", to the best of my knowledge the answer is no.

If the question is " does the readiness status of newly received upgraded devices depend on their type", the answer is no.

Alfred








Ian R -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/28/2017 3:52:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Alfred.

Is there a difference between not-squad devices - tanks, guns - where you get a new one out of the finite supply, on the one hand; and on the other, squad type devices, where, to summarise perhaps too briefly, what you in effect get is a squad upgrade to the new version, reflecting the issue of more automatic weapons, etc?.

Sorry, I'm finding it difficult to understand your question.

If the question is "does the rate of recovery depend on the type of device", to the best of my knowledge the answer is no.

If the question is " does the readiness status of newly received upgraded devices depend on their type", the answer is no.

Alfred








Thanks, you answered it.

What I was getting at was whether, if you get as an example a tank type upgrade- say M3 Lee to M4 Sherman - at a time when you had 17 disabled Lees and 34 not-disabled ones, do 17 of your brand new Shermans become disabled as a result?

The answer as I understand it is "yes".



Alfred -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/28/2017 4:42:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R



Thanks, you answered it.

What I was getting at was whether, if you get as an example a tank type upgrade- say M3 Lee to M4 Sherman - at a time when you had 17 disabled Lees and 34 not-disabled ones, do 17 of your brand new Shermans become disabled as a result?

The answer as I understand it is "yes".


That is what I thought you meant but I discarded it as I thought post #22 directly answered it after pointing out the inaccuracy in the manual, hence why I was puzzled and uncertain what exactly was the question. Obviously I wasn't clear enough in post #22.[:)]

If you have 17 disabled Lees and 34 ready Lees, upon upgrading you receive 51 ready Shermans.

To make it clearer I provide the thread with the comments (made in several posts) I alluded to from BigJ62 in post #22.[/I]

That is what I thought you meant but I discarded it as I thought post #22 directly answered it after pointing out the inaccuracy in the manual, hence why I was puzzled and uncertain what exactly was the question. Obviously I wasn't clear enough in post #22.[:)]

If you have 17 disabled Lees and 34 ready Lees, upon upgrading you receive 51 ready Shermans.

To make it clearer I provide the thread with the comments (made in several posts) I alluded to from BigJ62 in post #22.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2268110&mpage=1&key=

Alfred

Alfred



Ian R -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/28/2017 8:52:33 AM)

quote:


If you have 17 disabled Lees and 34 ready Lees, upon upgrading you receive 51 ready Shermans.


Thank you, that makes perfectly good sense.

quote:

Obviously I wasn't clear enough in post #22


I am prepared to take the blame for not reading it properly.

I could, though, understand that if you are upgrading your US squad '43s to US squad '44s, you are issuing the same guys with a new mix of you-beaut upgraded weaponry. So if some of them were disabled by exhaustion/shell-shock/wound recovery/malaria/dysentery etc, at the moment of upgrade, they stay disabled.

Hence the other portion of my question, is there a difference between squad and non-squad devices in the treatment of this?

Just to be clear, by squad devices I mean the ones where the squads they replace are swapped back into the pool and get an instant upgrade so they contribute to a 'cascade' through your ground forces.



Alfred -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/28/2017 9:53:59 AM)

The answer still remains the same; the upgraded squads are received in a ready status.[:)]

The point you make about exhaustion et al being reflected in receiving disabled squads was not lost by the devs.  The problem from the game engine POV is

  • there is no tracking of disabled status - neither the cause of disablement nor the degree of the device itself (is the squad device 54 % disabled but the AFV device is 76% disabled) is tracked
  • it would be somewhat arbitrary, for example would an AFV which has lost its tracks and hence is immobile but which can be used as a fixed pillbox and thus contribute to defense, be properly considered disabled or ready.  In AE the issue is sidestepped because it is a simple binary switch, a device is either ready or disabled

Read the BigJ62 posts in the thread I provided in post #26 to see the devs quandary regarding this issue.

Alfred



Skyros -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/29/2017 3:45:48 PM)

Alfred thank God you are still around to provide this information and clarity.

Thank you.



Alfred -> RE: Unit recovery from disablements (11/30/2017 3:07:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Alfred thank God you are still around to provide this information and clarity.

Thank you.


Very kind words, particularly considering they come from someone who was involved in the development of AE, a fact probably not noticed by most who post.

As to my presence on the forum I have actually cut it back considerably as a result of what gets posted. There are several people I will not bother to provide any advice. Many reasons for that but high on the list is the suspicion they are playing a pirated copy of the game. About 7 years ago there was a Dutchman who over a period of months persistently asked the most basic game mechanics questions, all of them clearly answered in the manual. It was only after several months that he admitted that he couldn't look up the manual for the simple reason that he had a pirated copy which lacked the manual. Currently there is at least one regular poster who displays the same profile as that Dutchman albeit his English is better. I will not condone aiding and abetting computer piracy.

Then there are others who are incapable of self determining the answer to a question like: "(a) + (b) = 4, where (a) has the value of 4 what is the value of (b)?". Or they might ask the forum something like "my air unit is assigned to 100% training, why did it not attack the spotted enemy carriers?, it must be a bug". I believe there is a South Park character whose catch phrase is "there are no stupid questions, only stupid people". It is a waste of my time to provide an answer in these circumstances.

One of the consequences of my limited forum presence is that I have "101 guides" which I won't bother posting. I have occasionally received PMs from individuals seeking clarification on areas where I have an unposted 101 guide. Depending on who PM'd me I have emailed them that guide.

Alfred



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