Pacific At War 1941-45 (Full Version)

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Auchinleck -> Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/16/2017 11:23:01 PM)

I bought the game specifically to play the Pacific War. In the Scenario Descriptions for both, it says "There is No Functional AI for This Scenario" If that means No Single Player, I'm going to want a refund if that's the case!



winkr7 -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/16/2017 11:57:01 PM)

Yeah, lots of scenarios are this way.



JiminyJickers -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 12:01:01 AM)

Is there a list anywhere of scenarios that doesn't have and AI opponent?


This is the main thing that stops me from buying this at the moment. Given that I plan to mostly play single player.



goodwoodrw -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 12:16:49 AM)

I just checked the Pacific WW2 around half the scenarios are for Human to human. This is a lttle disappointing



Delaware -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 12:23:20 AM)

Oooooooo all of a sudden not interested



basilstaghare -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 12:24:48 AM)

Are there any of the monster scenarios that are AI / Solo play capable? Thinking of buying but hoping some of the strategic full war / larger scenarios are AI capable.



Meyer1 -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 12:26:35 AM)

Well that is related to the nature of the game, most scenarios are made by the users themselves, so what makes a strong point of the game (incredible variety and tons of scenarios), could also be considered a weakness (many scenarios to be PBEM only, not all have the same quality standards, etc). Creating a scenario, specially a "monster", it's a huge work and many designers don't have the interest or the skills to work with the AI.
So here we are, but I agree it would be nice to have that info about all scenarios on a single list.



Queeg -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 12:56:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

Well that is related to the nature of the game, most scenarios are made by the users themselves, so what makes a strong point of the game (incredible variety and tons of scenarios), could also be considered a weakness (many scenarios to be PBEM only, not all have the same quality standards, etc). Creating a scenario, specially a "monster", it's a huge work and many designers don't have the interest or the skills to work with the AI.
So here we are, but I agree it would be nice to have that info about all scenarios on a single list.


That's all fine, so long as they tell people what they're buying. In fact, the "All Questions Answered" FAQ says nothing about non-AI scenarios.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 12:57:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: basilhare_ssl
Are there any of the monster scenarios that are AI / Solo play capable? Thinking of buying but hoping some of the strategic full war / larger scenarios are AI capable.

There's a scenario called "D21" and it's like FITE but has a Soviet PO. I'm playing it now.



Auchinleck -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 1:12:49 AM)

larry, you sound like a Matrix Game Staffer, how can I get a refund, since I was sold this game under false pretenses, that it was playable against an AI? As a long time customer, if Matrix gives a chuck about long time customers, I insist on a refund! Or I will never buy again from Matrix. Matrix was intentionally misleading about most scenarios being 2 player only!



Meyer1 -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 1:13:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Auchinleck

larry, you sound like a Matrix Game Staffer, how can I get a refund, since I was sold this game under false pretenses, that it was playable against an AI? As a long time customer, if Matrix gives a chuck about long time customers, I insist on a refund! Or I will never buy again from Matrix. Matrix was intentionally misleading about most scenarios being 2 player only!

He is not (Me neither)



larryfulkerson -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 1:17:22 AM)

Yeah, I started to say......I'm not a staffer whatever that is.....I'm just a guy who posts pictures
on a forum. But about your refund...are you going to turn your back on all the playable scenarios?
There's lots of them available. I'm not sure how to get a refund. Maybe you could send Tamas an
email? Maybe the Matrix Help Desk?



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 2:05:17 AM)

Of course, if you really want a PO for the Pacific scenario, you could put it in the Editor and do it yourself. Or maybe all of you clamoring for such could combine and do it.



JiminyJickers -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 2:37:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Of course, if you really want a PO for the Pacific scenario, you could put it in the Editor and do it yourself. Or maybe all of you clamoring for such could combine and do it.


Having not played the previous games, how easy is this to do? Do you just give it objectives, or is it much more direct telling units where to move? Does it allow for variety or does the PO programming make every play through the same?

Thanks for your time.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 2:53:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JiminyJickers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Of course, if you really want a PO for the Pacific scenario, you could put it in the Editor and do it yourself. Or maybe all of you clamoring for such could combine and do it.


Having not played the previous games, how easy is this to do? Do you just give it objectives, or is it much more direct telling units where to move? Does it allow for variety or does the PO programming make every play through the same?

Thanks for your time.

At a minimum you would have to set a series of objectives for each formation. If you want to get fancy, you might set multiple tracks of objectives per formation (switching tracks via the Event Editor) - but that's probably overkill. You might also set the Strategic Bias for each side - perhaps changing it by event at certain points. Formations themselves have General Orders and Orders Emphasis - those would need to be set for each formation.

Setting individual objectives is not hard. But these scenarios have huge maps, needing lots of objectives, and there are lots of formations. It will give you an appreciation of why an unpaid scenario designer might balk at doing the PO for a huge, complex scenario.



srd5090 -> It works? (11/17/2017 2:59:58 AM)

I opened the scenario with Axis Japan as computer controlled and it appeared to do stuff on it's turn. So it seems it can be played single player.



larryfulkerson -> RE: It works? (11/17/2017 3:04:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: srd5090
I opened the scenario with Axis Japan as computer controlled and it appeared to do stuff on it's turn. So it seems it can be played single player.

Yeah the computer can move and shoot with the units but there's no objectives set usually and they tend to not "know
what to do" all the time. I've seen designers give one blanket objective, like setting all the Axis units objective
to Moscow and all the Soviet units the objective of Berlin. They will try to achieve their objective and it'll play
just not in a strictly organized manner.



JiminyJickers -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 6:40:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay]
At a minimum you would have to set a series of objectives for each formation. If you want to get fancy, you might set multiple tracks of objectives per formation (switching tracks via the Event Editor) - but that's probably overkill. You might also set the Strategic Bias for each side - perhaps changing it by event at certain points. Formations themselves have General Orders and Orders Emphasis - those would need to be set for each formation.

Setting individual objectives is not hard. But these scenarios have huge maps, needing lots of objectives, and there are lots of formations. It will give you an appreciation of why an unpaid scenario designer might balk at doing the PO for a huge, complex scenario.


Thanks Curtis, appreciate the information. Sounds like something I’ll enjoy messing around with.



Tamas -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 6:57:04 AM)

Guys, Auchinleck is not doing anyone any favours by opening thread after thread on the same subject, regardless of how valid or invalid his point is. Let me copy my previous 3 replies to him on this, and then I'll give you a link to the thread where this is already being discussed.

ALL the scenarios can be played in single player without exception. The difference that can be made between the nearly 300 scenarios, is whether specific AI scripts to help and optimise AI planning have been added or not.

Some of the scenarios, and indeed, that usually means the massive ones, do not have such AI scripts and the designers felt that due to this the AI's performance in their scenarios does not live up to the standard set by the other 200+ ones. So they market these "PBEM only".

I'd like to point out that we have almost as many scenarios marked "PO (AI) only", including one of the most impressive and biggest ones, Directive 21, that lets you play the Axis forces through the entire East Front campaign from 1941 to 1945. The designers suggest you play this as the Axis, and your long term victory objective is not to lose Berlin by the end of it!
And also in the case of these scenarios, there is nothing stopping you from playing them PBEM. It is merely that the designers felt that the events scripted etc. give you the most historic result if you play as a specific side in single player.

And then there is the vast majority of the scenarios, where the AI has been properly helped by scripts for both sides AND the designers are not shy about recommending PBEM either.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378518



JiminyJickers -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 7:48:00 AM)

Thanks Tamas, that alleviates a lot of my fears.



Nemo84 -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 8:49:32 AM)

Tamas, let's not be disingenuous.

Yes, there always is an "AI" even if the PO isn't programmed. It simply won't do much. No coordinated long-distance movement, no objectives, nothing but reshuffling units a bit and attacking those enemies that happen to be adjacent. It's utterly braindead without the PO and not an enjoyable singleplayer experience.

I've played a lot of TOAWIII, so I knew what to expect for the scenarios and considered the scant improvements not worth the price. New players do not know this. The marketing of this sequel on this site and the forums is putting in a lot of effort to emphasize the number and size of scenarios but never mention the limited singleplayer potential of many of those. I can fully understand why some customers are complaining about a bait and switch, and Matrix once agains shows very poor customer support in dismissing these complaints instead of dealing with them in a professional manner.

As for the suggestion to just program a PO ourselves: people don't pay $40 to do the developer's job. And if it were this easy, why didn't Matrix put in the effort?



Cfant -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 9:02:21 AM)

I think Nemo84 has a valid point there. You have to keep in mind, that TOAW has no difficulty-option like many other games (e.g. AI has 30% more attack points on hard or something) AND it is very complex. I know no game, where the AI can be a challenge without being boosted. So I don't blame the developers, that the AI is not really good.
I think the fire would be extinguished by the release of a full scenario list with notes like "only PbEM-tested" or "PO for Axis side".

So everyone could decide for himself. Like on battlefiedl - it's all about information [;)]I think most interested people would see, that there ARE lots of scenarios with PO. Some like OP however may be warned. I hope we still can convince him to give TOAW IV a try, as TOAW is worth it. But I really can understand, that people feel not well informed or mislead.



Titus -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 9:12:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cfant

You have to keep in mind, that TOAW has no difficulty-option like many other games (e.g. AI has 30% more attack points on hard or something) AND it is very complex.


In player options there is AI intelligence option and handicap/cheat human or computer 0/+1/+2 option also.



jnpoint -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 9:18:41 AM)

I do not think I will regret buying this game, but I'm somehow angry anyway. I watch a scenarios list for this game and it tells about the BRAND NEW SCENARIOS, and here I can read that there are 'Pacific at war 1941-45', 'world at war 1939-1945' and I look forward to play them against the AI. I couldn't imagine that it was NOT playable as single player. I really thought that it was made by the devs. Why shouldn't I?



Cfant -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 9:20:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titus
In player options there is AI intelligence option and handicap/cheat human or computer 0/+1/+2 option also.


I've never seen any improvement by this option. [:)] Therefore I didn't mention it.



Curious -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 9:20:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodwoodrw

I just checked the Pacific WW2 around half the scenarios are for Human to human. This is a lttle disappointing

I don't even see any Pacific WW2 scenarios. They aren't listed with the rest of the WW2 scenarios. Either the Pacific scenarios are hidden or I've gone blind.

p.s. I see that they're listed under Asia WW2, not Pacific. Sorry 'bout that.



Tamas -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 9:27:36 AM)

They are in the WW2 Asia folder.

Meanwhile, since this appears to be a concern for several people here, I am working on a document that lists scenarios categorised by recommendation of the designer: AI&PBEM, PBEM only, AI only.



Titus -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 9:28:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cfant


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titus
In player options there is AI intelligence option and handicap/cheat human or computer 0/+1/+2 option also.


I've never seen any improvement by this option. [:)] Therefore I didn't mention it.


You might want to try again, from manual 3.3.3.:
Selecting Human +1 or Human +2 gives increasing advantages (supplies, rest, strength modifiers, etc.) to a human player; selecting Computer +1 or Computer +2 gives the same increasing advantages to the programmed opponent



Nemo84 -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 9:29:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cfant
I think the fire would be extinguished by the release of a full scenario list with notes like "only PbEM-tested" or "PO for Axis side".

So everyone could decide for himself. Like on battlefiedl - it's all about information [;)]I think most interested people would see, that there ARE lots of scenarios with PO. Some like OP however may be warned. I hope we still can convince him to give TOAW IV a try, as TOAW is worth it. But I really can understand, that people feel not well informed or mislead.


Exactly. Simply informing the customer of the product's limitations instead of trying to pretend they don't exist would intantly solve this instead of disgruntling customers.

I think there is also a misconception about what this game really is. Many people see the monster scenarios like Pacific at War 1941-1945 or FitE and think those are what TOAW is all about: an alternative to WitE or WitP. But TOAW doesn't really handle those monster scenarios well. The interface and mechanics aren't well suited for it and neither is the AI (which is why there often is no PO for those scenarios). TOAW is really about smaller operational warfare and single battles: Desert Storm, Korea, the Bulge, Normandy, Kasserine, the Fulda Gap,... This is where the game shines and why it should be bought. And most of those scenarios do have at least one PO.



Szilard -> RE: Pacific At War 1941-45 (11/17/2017 9:36:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

Tamas, let's not be disingenuous.

Yes, there always is an "AI" even if the PO isn't programmed. It simply won't do much. No coordinated long-distance movement, no objectives, nothing but reshuffling units a bit and attacking those enemies that happen to be adjacent. It's utterly braindead without the PO and not an enjoyable singleplayer experience.

I've played a lot of TOAWIII, so I knew what to expect for the scenarios and considered the scant improvements not worth the price. New players do not know this. The marketing of this sequel on this site and the forums is putting in a lot of effort to emphasize the number and size of scenarios but never mention the limited singleplayer potential of many of those. I can fully understand why some customers are complaining about a bait and switch, and Matrix once agains shows very poor customer support in dismissing these complaints instead of dealing with them in a professional manner.

As for the suggestion to just program a PO ourselves: people don't pay $40 to do the developer's job. And if it were this easy, why didn't Matrix put in the effort?


Agree 100%. A scenario without a PO is almost certainly worthless for single player unless there have been radical changes since 3.4; Matrix claiming otherwise is at best inept; the marketing should have made clear which scenarios are single-player ready.



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