The Kokoda Trail Expressway (Full Version)

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Drex -> The Kokoda Trail Expressway (5/21/2003 11:34:35 AM)

PM was invaded by land over the Kokoda Trail - until the Aussies stopped the Japanese in their tracks. How developed was this trial? In UV, the Japanese can land divisions in Buna and march over the Owen Stanley Mts with any available unit. My opponent is taking an AA battalion over the Mts and giving my bombers a bad time. Was it possible to bring 40mm guns with their transport over the Kokoda Trail? Could they bring tanks over?



Drongo -> (5/21/2003 12:31:01 PM)

It's called a trail (or track) for good reason. Thats all it was for most of it's twisting length through the Owen Stanley Mountains. Nothing better than a very difficult walking track.

On the UV map, the hex just NE of Port Moresby represents the the harshest part of the track. This is where it crosses the mountains proper.

From Port Moresby, movement to this point was by "road" to a place called Owens Corner. For a short distance after that, light tracked vehicles and pack animals could use the track but once it began moving "uphill" into the Stanleys, all movement was by foot.

From Buna, the track hex immeadiately SW represented comparitively easier movement until it too reached the base of the Stanleys.

Movement on foot through the mountainous part of the track was very slow and exhausting. The high parts of the track in this area were prone to near continuous rain and very cold, high altitude conditions.

I always think its funny to be able to march well equipped troops through that area and then be still capable of battle on arrival.

The reality of the Kokoda Trail where it passed through the mountains would be -
1) No mechanised units can pass through.
2) Unit density - No more than a brigade equivalent should be able to operate at any one time.
2) Heavy weapons/artillery would need to suffer a 10 fold movement speed penalty as well as a limit in numbers and ammo. Historically, the Australians managed to drag a small amount of artillery into the mountain area to support the fighting, so it was possible on a small scale. The Japanese guns were more portable since most could be broken down into man-pack loads but even they struggled to bring more than a token amount in.
3) Supply - almost all carried on the backs of soldiers and natives. Any unit moving into the mountain location should immeadiately by reduced to (at best) a supply load equal to minimum supply requirements. To add sufficient supply to double the units load should require the supplied unit being stationary and not fighting for at least 2 weeks (probably more). Airborne supply was of limited use (but still vital).
3) Fatigue/disruption - Units moving through or fighting in the mountain location should have their fatigue immeadiately have at least 50 added to their fatigue and disruption levels. Recovery would be minimal while there.

Is this helping build the picture?

Try this website for more details
http://www.battleforaustralia.org.au/index.html



Fred98 -> (5/21/2003 12:37:00 PM)

I walked the Kokoda Track 20 yerars ago.

Its about 2 feet wide.

Dirt.

In the rainy season its mud.

But the most memorable part is how steep it is.

You spend 6 hours climbing.

You spend 6 hours decending.

But to fight you would need to enter the thick dark jungle.

Even in the jungle it is still steep.



denisonh -> (5/21/2003 1:22:51 PM)

Sounds like a great way to spend some vacation time, do the Kokoda Trail. Where do I sign up?



pasternakski -> (5/21/2003 1:33:10 PM)

For the reasons you all mention, I hope that WITP will take into account the idiosyncrasies of various types of ground units in a way that UV does not. Tanks, AA, mech, and footsoldiers all moving at the same rate? I think not (unless when being transported by rail).

I note, too, that if there is ever to be a "port" of this game system into the European theater, a lot more detail needs to be built into the treatment of ground unit types. Dudes hoofing it from place to place may be adequate for the most recent incarnation of "War in the South Pacific," but it just won't do for a computer version of "War in Europe" (or even "War in the Mediterranean").



denisonh -> (5/21/2003 1:40:14 PM)

Too right Pasternakski,

As I have spent a fair amount of time "humping" up and down ridgelines, and through forests, swamps. etc...., I do find it intersting that the various units have the same movement rate in slow-go and no-go terrain, not to mention the terrain restrictions on specific trails such as the Kokoda trail on mechanized movement.

Since moving supplies by mule or by hand are a bit different than by truck, it seems treating the stretch between Townsville and Cairns the same way as between PM and Buna is abit odd, don't you think?

I think that there is some seruious room for improvement on modeling unit movement and supply movement as it applies to difficult terrain.

I ceratinly hope it is implemented in WitP.



alphakilroy -> kokoda track (5/21/2003 3:32:51 PM)

In reference to the Kokoda track My father was in the 32nd infantry div. and fought on the Kokoda trail and with the aussies through out the N/G campaign. ( the final surrender of jap troops didn't happen there until sept. 1945 ). Some troops marched the track while others like heavy weapons platoons were flown over the mountains by C-47 (but not tanks). Later they moved up the coast by barge much like the japs did. The fighting in the first months was a series of give and take battles where both sides held the other from taking there side of the island. My father was wounded during one of the allied retreats back toward P/M. Much of the humpping of gear was done by native bearers. Many of the natives at this time were still practising canabalisum and the aussie/US government paid "bounties" to the tribes for each jap head they showed. My father also spoke of troops being lost to crocodiles during river crossing. Initally we were at a disadvantage as we were not trained for jungle fighting most US ttraining prior to pearl harbor was for the antisapated war with Germany even our gear was substandard for jungle fighting at first such as leather boots and leather equipment straps whitch would rot away in just a couple days of humid jungle climate. The fighting around Buna was much like Vietnam in that the terain was a combination of triple canopy jungle and salt water marches were the trees grew on elevated root systems that provided natural defense positions many fire fights occured where neither side saw the other. Disease was the greatest cause of casualties to both sides.



crsutton -> (5/21/2003 11:01:01 PM)

The Japanese were much better at moving guns and such through Jungle. They did have artillery at Guadacanal and there were no roads to say for them to use. Basically, they just broke them down and manhandled them. However, any guns they took on the march to PM stayed there. The issue is not moving guns but the disease and starvation. Units cut off from base in UV should break apart fast. I have taken PM, Buna, GG and all costal hexes as the Japanese. Yet, there are lots of large bodies of Allied troops marching around in the interior. They should have rotted out by now.

On the bright side, they are ineffective as combat troops due to disruption and fatigue. If they die they will rebuild in Brisbane. Now it is just like a big POW camp.

Perhaps I will leave them be.



Nikademus -> (5/22/2003 2:10:52 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe 98
[B]I walked the Kokoda Track 20 yerars ago.

Its about 2 feet wide.

Dirt.

In the rainy season its mud.

But the most memorable part is how steep it is.

You spend 6 hours climbing.

You spend 6 hours decending.

But to fight you would need to enter the thick dark jungle.

Even in the jungle it is still steep. [/B][/QUOTE]

You have to wonder what (assuming there are some) the tour guides have to think of blokes 'wanting' to spend their vacation trudging through the footsteps of those who had little choice but to do it back in wartime :)

where do i sign up? ;)

Did you have to get all sorts of innoculations?



Fred98 -> (5/22/2003 5:16:10 AM)

The only guide I had was the bit of dirt in front of me.

It took our party of 4 experienced bushwalkers, 6 days.

There are "tours" and they take 10 days.

Contact the PNG travel office in Sydney and they can put you onto a "tour".

You must be fit to do this. And you must be mentally prepared for 10 days of walking.

To achieve both comes from being an experienced bushwalker.



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