Keep Russia neutral until attacked (Full Version)

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ARAGORN2123 -> Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/20/2017 2:27:40 PM)

I am still confounded by the fact that Russia automatically joins the Allies in '41, even though Stalin would have never done that in real life. Would someone please create a mod that keeps Russia neutral until attacked by Germany, exactly what actually happened in World War II?



KorutZelva -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/20/2017 2:34:22 PM)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_offensive_plans_controversy

Are you sure?



crispy131313 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/20/2017 3:00:15 PM)

When you do not declare war on USSR, history is altered. Why can the alternative not be be USSR declaring war on Germany. Sure there could be events that keep USSR out of the war, but what would balance it? Simply denying USSR the ability to join the war for X amount of time would serve only one side in game play.

You would have at least make some feasible causes that could provide some balance.



BillRunacre -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/20/2017 3:27:27 PM)

There's no guarantee that the USSR will enter the war in 1941, it can be sometime in 1942 before that occurs. This all depends on decisions taken during the game and both sides use of diplomacy.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/20/2017 3:28:12 PM)

I agree with the idea, and because of that I added in a way to slow the USSR Mobilization for the 653N Mod. However, I state in the related DE that it throws off game balance, as without the USSR involved early, the Axis has a cake walk.
Still fun to do sometimes.



ARAGORN2123 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/20/2017 6:31:26 PM)

If Stalin was indeed prepared to attack Germany in '41, which is TOTAL conjecture, he had the worst prepared military in the history of warfare to do such a thing. Stalin had the absolute best of all worlds. He could sit back and watch all of his enemies decimate each other without losing a single Russian. I repeat, he had ZERO reason to attack Germany and SC WWII should reflect that historical fact. Oh well, no game is perfect but a glitch of such magnitude should at least be fixed.



ARAGORN2123 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/20/2017 6:41:49 PM)

I'm simply asking for historical accuracy. I have fervently studied WWII, with an emphasis on Germany/USSR, for 50+ years. Historically, Russia did not attack Germany and, as a result of my research, I am convinced that they never would have. Stalin hated Democracy and the West far more than he hated Germany. After all, Communism and Nazism are two peas from the same pod.



crispy131313 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/20/2017 7:56:23 PM)

There is still no plausible alternative offered to keeping USSR out of the war. Simply making the USSR a side quest doesn't sound right.



Taxman66 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/20/2017 9:05:28 PM)

How about Japan attacks the USSR, and in response the USA is able to either a) Defeat Japan sooner and once that is done has a 60% increase in MPP plus a bunch of free units to send to europe; or b) Is able to dedicate more to europe as Japan spends effort against USSR instead of UK (Burma/India) and lesser Pacific island expansion. Bonus Indian units to UK, Increase in UK possession convoy income and 25%-33% increase to USA MPP.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/20/2017 10:58:21 PM)

quote:

SC WWII should reflect that historical fact

It is great to have someone with 50+ years of fervent study on the topic. One thing about any of these games that cover the matter is that we tend to build Stalin into the Soviet side by creating limitations on their military's ability to operate, while at the same time writing Hitler out and giving the player freedom with Germany's armed forces. Additionally, most games write out Axis Minor's political influences.
An historical fact was that Hitler decided to go into Russia even before the French signed their armistice. Therefore in SC3 we do have a little bit of history, in that Russia will be involved, usually before the UK is completely out. Hitler is built in by the game designers, whether they intended to or not.

When I started playing SC3 during Beta, as an American I was appalled that the USA declares war on Germany first. I was actually offended, because this is totally unhistorical. However, we had a discussion and I realized that it is that way for game balance. It's a game, so that is ok, it makes a better game.
And as I said, if you really are not liking it that much, then maybe you should try the 653N Mod ... it even has historical oob's !



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/20/2017 11:07:13 PM)

quote:

How about Japan attacks the USSR

I really like trying to think these things thru, especially since we have no idea how things could of worked out and therefore we get to go wild in thought. So I'm not disagreeing with you, just thinking out loud.
If Japan goes all out at the USSR instead of the going at the USA and other Pacific territories, then there is no Pearl Harbor. The American public has no interest in a Japanese/Soviet war, therefore the USA does not enter. Hitler is even more encouraged to attack Russia, as even though the Japanese military is not mighty enough to conquer all of Russia, it is far stronger than Stalin's Far East Army, so forces from western Russia have to be transferred to the east.



Taxman66 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/20/2017 11:55:30 PM)

No, I'm presuming that Japan still has to get the oil in the Netherlands East Indies and that will trigger the Commonwealth and by default the USA sooner or later. So if Japan does or does not Pearl the US will be involved. Remember Japan believed they would knock the US into a quick favorable diplomatic resolution by a decisive victory. As at happens due to incompetance (byJapanese diplomatic staff and perhaps some on the US side) it turned into a sneak attack that didn't crush US spirit as intended but effectively p*ssed off the entire nation.



KorutZelva -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/21/2017 12:11:49 AM)

Let's say they go north, they probably would have left French Indochina alone, which means no frozen asset and loss of 88% of its imported oil. They don't lose the imports, they stay clear of the east indies. I've pitched how I would do it in the Korut reviews all decision tread

quote:

I do wish the outcomes of what happens in the pacific was randomized. For example Japan going North on its own 15% of the time. Just high enough to force the USSR player not to assume the Siberians will be available for sure. And high enough for Axis player to occasionally grin with glee at this unexpected windfall.

Japan accept and pursue Hokushin-ron which will eventually be defeated in 1944 (announced by pop-up). No supply to USSR via Vladivostok. Loss of National Morale (until they get it back when they beat the Japanese in 1944). No Siberian troop transfer until dec 1944 and the units are all half strength but with an additional experience dot. With the prospect of a war with Japan being unlikely in the short term, UK and USA transfer additional naval assets and group troops from the pacific theater in 1941.

Yep, it would have a big impact. It would make the convoy to the arctic to the USSR more hotly contested (but something the allies can certainly tackle with the additional naval assets). And the additional ground troops the allies get would mirror the Siberian counterpart except divided between the UK and the USA and be put into use for an early torch or D-day. (UK player could get a follow-up decision on where to deploy the pacific assets: egypt or UK) Germany is getting an early reprieve in the east but headaches in the west. With the siberian still showing up late 1944, the stakes are high to finish the USSR before that.



Taxman66 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/21/2017 1:54:14 AM)

Except that FDR wanted to get in the war and would've eventually found a reason to embargo the oil to provoke Japan into attacking.



ARAGORN2123 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/21/2017 4:44:35 PM)

Thanks to all....great ideas from everyone. I just decided to go to the editor and tweak a few things to offset Russia's premature attack on Germany and joining the allies.



Zecke -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/21/2017 5:23:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ARAGORN2123

I am still confounded by the fact that Russia automatically joins the Allies in '41, even though Stalin would have never done that in real life. Would someone please create a mod that keeps Russia neutral until attacked by Germany, exactly what actually happened in World War II?


well am confused too; i thought that Russia was on war against germany just with the invasion of Poland by BOTH (German and Russia); the fact is that russia was not prepared for war until British convoys fullfill the mother land.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/21/2017 5:25:31 PM)

My Axis PBEM opponent seems to be intending to persuade the USSR to not enter the war until later, as has invested diplo points (with some success) to achieve this (he's currently performing Sealion...)



Zecke -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/21/2017 5:31:12 PM)

Also there is a fact¡ in Strategic command WWII in Europe Matrix-games that makes really the best version of COS; that; as origin game POLAND can be not divided; i mean if you do well (as German) Poland can be all for the germans which is great to invade easy the mother land.



Hubert Cater -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/22/2017 1:28:56 AM)

Hi ARAGORN2123,

I've just posted a similar message over at the Steam forum for the game and thought I'd post it here as well.

One thing we've tried to include in game are specific triggers that would influence countries like the USSR to possibly enter the war early or to simply declare war due to non historical circumstances in game.

While historically Germany did declare war on the USSR in June of 1941, if the Axis player deviates from history then what we've done is to essentially try and take these new circumstances into account as best as we reasonably could.

For example an Axis Sealion combined with a lightly guarded Eastern Front may entice Stalin to enter the war to try and take advantage of an over extended Germany.

Also, if the Axis have not properly guarded their Eastern front/border with the USSR then this also increases Soviet interest in entering the war to possibly take advantage of the situation.

If you play a historical game as the Axis, then typically at least 2 units within 10 hexes of Warsaw in 1940, and 4 units in 1941 will keep Stalin at bay allowing you to declare war in June 1941. But of course this would still not keep the Soviets out indefinitely and at some point if you have not declared war they will pursue the conflict themselves. Having more than 18 units within 10 hexes of Warsaw will eventually increase Soviet war readiness as well. With in game messages enabled there will be periodic warnings to the Axis players if these particular conditions are not met in game.

All this being said, we can't say for sure what would have happened in these situations in real life, but without some sort of effort to counter balance non historical game play the game can quickly become skewed and this is especially important for Multiplayer games.

However, if you'd really like to disable these features in game for your single player adventures, this is easily doable in game via the OPTIONS->ADVANCED->SCRIPTS screen.

From there take a look at the Mobilization 1, 2, 3 and 4 EVENTS and in particular any that have to do with the USSR and you can disable these as desired.

Hope this helps,
Hubert



Icier -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/22/2017 7:15:46 PM)

I can remember reading somewhere that Stalin told his Generals to prepare for war late 42 early 43. Sorry guys cant remember
the source, but google Stalin secret war plans: why Hitler invaded the Soviet Union.



Icier -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/22/2017 7:23:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi ARAGORN2123,

I've just posted a similar message over at the Steam forum for the game and thought I'd post it here as well.

One thing we've tried to include in game are specific triggers that would influence countries like the USSR to possibly enter the war early or to simply declare war due to non historical circumstances in game.

While historically Germany did declare war on the USSR in June of 1941, if the Axis player deviates from history then what we've done is to essentially try and take these new circumstances into account as best as we reasonably could.

For example an Axis Sealion combined with a lightly guarded Eastern Front may entice Stalin to enter the war to try and take advantage of an over extended Germany.

Also, if the Axis have not properly guarded their Eastern front/border with the USSR then this also increases Soviet interest in entering the war to possibly take advantage of the situation.

Typically at least 2 units within 10 hexes of Warsaw in 1940, and 4 units in 1941 will keep Stalin at bay, but of course not indefinitely. Having more than 18 units within 10 hexes of Warsaw will eventually increase Soviet war readiness as well. With in game messages enabled there will be periodic warnings to the Axis players if these particular conditions are not met in game.

All this being said, we can't say for sure what would have happened in these situations in real life, but without some sort of effort to counter balance non historical game play the game can quickly become skewed and this is especially important for Multiplayer games.

However, if you'd really like to disable these features in game for your single player adventures, this is easily doable in game via the OPTIONS->ADVANCED->SCRIPTS screen.

From there take a look at the Mobilization 1, 2, 3 and 4 EVENTS and in particular any that have to do with the USSR and you can disable these as desired.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

Sorry Hubert, but you are wrong, I have played 10 PBEM games as Germans & the Russians always declared for the Allies, usually
early 41 but every time in 41.....even though I have 4 divisions around Warsaw from 39.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/22/2017 8:43:36 PM)

quote:

Sorry Hubert, but you are wrong,

I am wondering what was wrong, you quoted everything that Hubert said, was everything he said wrong ? [&:]
I have seen Russia not enter until summer 1942.



Icier -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/22/2017 9:44:54 PM)

I have had Russia declare war in Dec 41.



Vichyssoise -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/23/2017 6:44:19 AM)

My (very short) experience:
In a few test games I did to fine tune my Barbarossa deployment (1939 campaign, intermediate), I had the Russia AI declare war on Germany a couple of times in June 1941. Once I had declared war on Portugal (upon getting Spain to join the Axis) and Yugoslavia to control the Balkans early. Another time, I'd played more conservatively but, on both occasions, I had plenty of units stationed close to the border for close to 6 months.
When I played more historically, and more importantly, managed my deployment in line with the 18 units requirement for a while before going all in, I caught Russia off guard as it happened in real life.

It made sense to me to have to pay some price for being too adventurous and straying away from history.



Hubert Cater -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/23/2017 1:08:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icier

I have had Russia declare war in Dec 41.


Without knowing all the details of your game, as they would be critical in understanding the situation better, I would still say that this would be in line with the expected mechanisms we've put in place.

I've also edited my post above to provide (possibly) further clarification:

"If you play a historical game as the Axis, then typically at least 2 units within 10 hexes of Warsaw in 1940, and 4 units in 1941 will keep Stalin at bay allowing you to declare war in June 1941. But of course this would still not keep the Soviets out indefinitely and at some point if you have not declared war they will pursue the conflict themselves."



ernieschwitz -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/24/2017 11:10:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ARAGORN2123

I'm simply asking for historical accuracy. I have fervently studied WWII, with an emphasis on Germany/USSR, for 50+ years. Historically, Russia did not attack Germany and, as a result of my research, I am convinced that they never would have. Stalin hated Democracy and the West far more than he hated Germany. After all, Communism and Nazism are two peas from the same pod.


You being convinced that they would not have attacked Germany, is not the same as it being a historical fact that they would not. ...



nnason -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/24/2017 12:41:54 PM)

All,
Historical accuracy would dictate strict orders of battle reinforcements, historical research, and thus historical results with Germany losing in May 45. Then Strat Cmd would not be a game just a recreation of history.

Due to some choices I made as Axis I have had the USA join in May of 41, 6 months early. Definitely not historical but reflecting my choices as Axis. (Boy was I surprised at that early entry.) But I applaud the designers that made this possible.

This game makes Allied and Axis non-historical choices fun and lets us do (perhaps unrealistic) what ifs. This what makes it a game and not a recreation. I for one am happy to play this game and hope that our community with good beta testing makes it a game that is balanced so that both sides have a chance to win with goofy but fun choices.

Enough soapbox. HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!




Saint Ruth -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/24/2017 12:45:42 PM)

Well, there's historical reality and there's the game.

The game should be balanced, and having the option of delaying the entry of the USSR (or even the US) for an inordinate number of turns would drastically unbalance the game.

Then there's history.

A good book on the period is:
"Grand Delusion: Stalin and the German Invasion of Russia" by Gabriel Gorodetsky

Did the Russians make offensive plans against Germany? Yes, but that is not evidence that they intended to carry them out. Stalin wanted to avoid war (or delay it for as long as possible), and the book argues that he over played his hand and made an huge miscalculation (the "Grand Delusion" being Stalins).
The USSR would never have attacked in 41 due to its ongoing re-organisation, and even in 1942, it's hard to imagine that the USSR would wait until Germany was supreme in Europe, and the Wehrmacht was "unemployed" before launching an attack.

When Molotov was in Berlin in Nov 1940, Ribbentrop even offered Molotov the chance to join the Axis (in the middle of a British air-raid) and the proposal was that the USSR expanded southward, but Molotov consistently made demands about Finland (officially in the Soviet "sphere of influence" but was occupied by German troops (at Finnish invitation of course)), and about Bulgaria and Rumania, and after meeting with Molotov on the Nov 13, Hitler was exasperated with Soviet intransigence and after the meeting issued "Instruction No. 18" regarding invading the USSR.

So, historically, the USSR could have realistically joined the Axis (after the war, Stalin is meant to have said "with the germans we would have been invincible"), and perhaps WWII would have been the US-UK versus Germany, Japan, Italy and the USSR (perhaps the Yalta conference in a parallel universe would have had a different photo of the Big 4).

In the original HOI, the Soviets could join the Axis I recall. But for a game like this, I think it has to be as it is.



nnason -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/24/2017 1:16:11 PM)

Hmm what if USSR joined the Axis and say Japan stayed neutral or joined the Allies? So many alternate histories. When SC3 does the entire world campaign maybe that could be an alternative.



KorutZelva -> RE: Keep Russia neutral until attacked (11/24/2017 2:33:00 PM)

Stalin took extensive effort to conceal general mobilization by manipulating the laws setting the conscription age. That allowed Stalin to provide the expansive build-up of the Red Army. By enacting the universal military draft on 1 September 1939, and by changing the minimum age for joining the Red Army from 21 to 18, Stalin triggered a mechanism which achieved a dramatic increase in the military strength of the Red Army. This specific law on mobilization allowed the Red Army to increase its army of 1,871,600 men in 1939 to 5,081,000 in the spring of 1941 under secrecy to avoid alarming the rest of the world. The duration of service was 2 years. Either the Red Army had to enter a war by 1 September 1941 or the drafted soldiers would have to be released from service.

I don't think you mobilize 5 million people just for a trip in Finland and the Baltic states. I think the (very plausible) hypothesis Hubert and Bill used for the game was that left to their own device the USSR would have joined the war in fall 1941. Makes for a good game.



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