RE: FITE 2 (Full Version)

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Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/5/2021 7:34:43 PM)

Pskov turn 6

[image]local://upfiles/49014/C1CBC48C5A9D468DB21F57C7BEB0EE88.jpg[/image]



Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/5/2021 7:35:29 PM)

Pskov turn 7

[image]local://upfiles/49014/EFFB9279BB11494391E866CCD4DF9C99.jpg[/image]



Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/5/2021 7:36:28 PM)

Stalingrad turn 43

[image]local://upfiles/49014/3C72912D187B4D53942BF86BF9C1B143.jpg[/image]



Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/5/2021 7:36:58 PM)

Stalingrad turn 44

[image]local://upfiles/49014/90364EDD632347C4A97822DB68473AE1.jpg[/image]



Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/5/2021 7:40:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt

As Ive said before then I think alot of the negativity towards the soviets being overpowered in the 1941/42 winter offensive, comes from games where the german player have pressed the german army to their extreme before the mud period and the winteroffensive kicks in. As the german player you need to slow down 3-4 turns before the first mud. Divide all your units into subunits, dig in, spread out your artillery and keep all your panzer divsions in reserve.

Its true that you will loose alot of units in the soviets attacks but the soviets will looses even more and since their amoured units dont really appear in mass, before the middle of the winter offensive, its possible to hold them of. untill they soviet player realize that summer is coming and he needs to slow down.

Expect to looses 4-5 hexes along your entire front or maybe 15-20 hexes in 2-3 areas in total.


I agree.

Playing as the germans the Russians could never threaten to make a powerful breakthrough. Simply because attacking fortified german units back by art is suicide for the Russians, and their units are not very powerful when it comes to attacks. They will advance no doubt, but it is very difficult to actually rout the Germans.

I have now played as the Russians, and find the above to be true :)



Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/5/2021 8:05:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt

Concerning the american tanks supplied to the USSR, could the designers be so kind as to clarify what the effects of keeping the german fleet in the baltics is, it says that it activates additional lend-lease units to the soviets. What is the precise effects?

Ive been looking into the scenario files but I cant find any information on this subject.

I find it very logical that if the germans keep their navy in the baltics the allies have an easier time of sending lend-lease to the USSR, I dont find that weird, I just wonder if there is any numbers avaible so the german player can ponder if it is a good idea.




Yes, that can be found nowhere.
AS I have said elsewhere the short briefing dicument is actually higly uncomlete. We will try to make it much more useful for version 2.0. Adding among other things stuff like this.

But the effect is this:

The Russians get 3 loads of equipment on turn +10 +110 and +210

The first contains:
399 M3M Lee
444 M3L Stuart
450 Mk.III Valentine 2pdr
999 Willys Jeep
166 Mk.II Matilda
19 Mk.II Churchill 2 pdr
306 M3A1 Scout Car
74 M3 Halftrack
999 Studebaker US-6

The second cotains:
514 M4A2 Sherman
450 Mk.IX Valentine 6Pdr
999 Willys Jeep
23 M4A2 Sherman L/76
19 19 Mk.IV Churchill 6 pdr
306 M3A1 Scout Car
74 M3 Halftrack
999 Studebaker US-6

The third contains:
500 M17 SPAA
300 M4A2 Sherman L/76
999 Willys Jeep
100 M15 SPAA
500 M3A1 Scout Car
500 M3 Halftrack
999 Studebaker US-6

Now that is a lot of equipment for sure. But we always take the option as the germans as the extra art you get from Norway is very good to help ensure that the Russian winter offensive comes at a high price for the Russians :)






Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/5/2021 8:11:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: torbenalbertsen

Ok. one question

the american lee and stuart tanks the russians get have 8 and 9 in armor. A t34 first version has 8, and they were considered very hard to kill by the germans. Isent this a bit much? Now, I know next to nothing about ww2 tanks, but from just reading a little bit here and there these tanks seemed to be early american wartanks and are not generally described as up to the standards of t34 for example. Could someone who knows maybe enlighten me, that is, if their armor is actually historically accurate or not?

thanks in advance


I don't know much about the equipment calculations, but I do know that many factors have been taken into account. And it is always difficult to reduce the performance of any equipment to just one number. But I do know that most Russian armor has had "1" maybe "2" subtracted from their final armor calculation to reflect the poor communication (lack of radios) and other stuff.

I will ask Søren if he has time to come by and elaborate further.



Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/5/2021 8:34:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt

Concerning the 41-42 soviet Winter offensive in FITE then I agree that a retreating soviet player have a large intact force to smash the german player.

In my opinion, then the only way to counter this as the german is to pull out all of your Panzer divisions before the offensive and keep them mobile and on rail to plug any developing soviet breakthroughs. You should also divide ALL you infantry into their subunits. The loss in overall Combat numbers isnt that bad compared to the problems a breakthrough can create. Put the first line on minimise losses, second line on limit losses and the last line on ignore losses. Spread out you artillery. The amount of losses the soviet player takes is around 5-1, and even with his superior manpower production he will soon start to hurt.

Also in the first 15-20 turns of the soviet offensive, he dosent have that many tanks and when he gets his reinforcments to the front for the last 10 turns, the Germans get tons of flak 8,8 cm units to insert into the most stressed sections of the front. Overall the soviets will have advanced 3-5 hexes and Burnt alot of manpower.

When summer comes you will be able to encircle All those juicy soviet tank armies and hopefully survive another Winter.

I still think there should be some reason to make a drive towards the caucasus in 42 as the germans, there isnt really any in the current scenario.




About the drive towards Caucasus.

You are right that on the face of it there is little reason to go there (I am not sure there were good reasons historically either).

But anyway: if you go there, and you cut the rail line running along the Caspian sea, (maybe with some recon troops) the Russians will be at 50% supply down there making it a good place to kill some Russians.

If you actually take Baku, you will put the Caucasus front out of action since it reconstitutes there. And you get a bonus unit containing:

1000 120mm Mortar sGrW 42
175 7,5cm L/11.8 LeIG 18
24 T-34/76 M43(c)
72 10,5cm L/28 LeFH 18 M
48 8,8 cm L56 FlaK 36/41
24 T34/76 M41(A)
36 15cm L/30 sFH 18
220 50mm Mortar LeGrW 36
24 10,5 L/52 s K 18
44 7,5 L/19,5 Geb G 36

Now I agree that is not much.
In 1942 I think the Germans should attack where they can kill a lot of Russians. And that could be in a place that is relatively poorly defended - the Caucasus might be such a place. If not then attack somewhere else :)




Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/5/2021 8:39:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Teufeldk


quote:

ORIGINAL: torbenalbertsen

Ok. one question

the american lee and stuart tanks the russians get have 8 and 9 in armor. A t34 first version has 8, and they were considered very hard to kill by the germans. Isent this a bit much? Now, I know next to nothing about ww2 tanks, but from just reading a little bit here and there these tanks seemed to be early american wartanks and are not generally described as up to the standards of t34 for example. Could someone who knows maybe enlighten me, that is, if their armor is actually historically accurate or not?

thanks in advance


I don't know much about the equipment calculations, but I do know that many factors have been taken into account. And it is always difficult to reduce the performance of any equipment to just one number. But I do know that most Russian armor has had "1" maybe "2" subtracted from their final armor calculation to reflect the poor communication (lack of radios) and other stuff.

I will ask Søren if he has time to come by and elaborate further.


I just checked. The armor of the T-34 is calculated to be 10,1 and then 2 is subtracted for "reliability". And reliability is just a surrogate for anything you like (bad comms etc). In other words, it is arbitrary.



gliz2 -> RE: FITE 2 (3/6/2021 6:48:23 AM)

I wanted to report a possible solution for the first turns issue.
Unfortunately it is based on House Rules.
1. First 5-6 turns: Russians must attack Germans (as they historically did). This means moving any infantry and mobile units (whole units incl. arty and HQs) to meet German units.
Also Soviets cannot blow bridges in the first turns.
2. For first 20 turns (till September). Only on one combat round is available for Soviets.
Other rules implemented:
3. Auxiliaries of Germans are not limited other than not allowed to attack together. So the Germans can freely use them e.g. Hungarians in Baltics are allowed.
4. No restrictions on Soviets from September onwards (they don't have to counterattack).
5. Soviets cannot invade Auxiliaries in 1941.
6. We give Germans option to move up to 4 Infantry and 1 Motorized divisions to northern Finland in August (if not used its gone). Not historical but plausible and again very useful option.

Playtested: 8 runs, 6 runs of 20 turns, 2 runs of 30 turns.

The first two rules seems to be working great. They allow even average German player to achieve good results but also provide some unexpected ones. As German I was sometimes caught off guard (or did caught Germans off guard as Soviet) because normally Soviets play defense from the start.
Since the Soviet MUST attack and has just single combat round the Soviet player is really trying hard to do the damage to the German offensive.
I was once shocked when in turn 4 Soviet player did a "kamikaze" run on and disrupting my bold advance.
Also Soviet player knows that he will not be able to set up early defense or blow bridges.
So the game opens a lot. If the German player keep pushing then the Soviets are not really able to set up a defence line until late Augst/early September.
At the same time the Soviets can tire Germans substantially (as they did historically).

I am currently playing a test run till 1942 to see how it develops further.

Any chance that 2.0 would give airborne option to Germans? This would add so much "flavour" to the German early offensive.

PS. German player needs to keep pushing their tanks and some infantry and should bypass any pockets of resistance in June and July ("rear" infantry will do the trick).
Although I see that this scenario values Caucasus as a target, generally Ukraine and beyond is a vast meatgrinder not worth investing too much effort.
First of all the ground to cover is absurdly huge and will eat any number of units.
Secondly it exposes Germans to a flanking Soviet attack that can easily cat of large number of troops (surprise: this is what actually happened).
Your goal as the German player is Moscow and Murmansk. Taking Moscow cuts the Soviets in half, taking Murmansk cut them off from easy Lend-Lease supplies (other options are much less effective).
Your goal as the Soviet player is not allow this to happen and also not let Lenningrad fall. Allowing Germans deep into Ukraine is a reasonable drawing in tactic exposing Germans to winter counteroffensive.



Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/6/2021 8:45:34 AM)

Players should of course implement whatever house rules they like to reflect the player's experience and playing styles. The point of this game (and any game) is to have a fun and exciting time. There is no point in playing a game that you basically think is a waste of time.

As the game is now I and Søren have no "first turn" issues. At least not with me as the Russians. The fast advance of the Germans was a constant problem. Any line created was broken, and new ones hard to form because of the time needed for the Russian units to dig in. But again the is our experience. Other people have different experiences.

-What kind of "airborne option" have you envisioned?
We have already limited airborne operations as it is in the house rules because we found them to be too powerful if they could jump far behind the enemy lines. But maybe something could be done.

- How do you think the scenario values the Caucasus as a target? I only ask because FaneFlugt had the opposite impression (a few posts up)






docgaun -> RE: FITE 2 (3/6/2021 8:51:15 AM)

The Formular for calculating the Armor is the Cos angle. Se below.

It’s the historical armor thickness and angel of the armor.
However, we want to make sure we got all factors in, hp/w ratio, and reliability and correlate it to historic information, eg front line personal experiences. So, the 5 cm AT PaK could shoot trough the 34 A, and the Tiger although heavy armored, was slow and to heavy for its engine power. That is why the Soviet caught some at Leningrad in 1942. It simply got stuck.
So, the total armor is modified by the HP/weight ratio. And the Ground Pressure (having wide tracks was a realy important feature on the eastern front were roads were bas, and the weather too 😉). This means the more agile light tanks have a small edge.

Armor total = (5*((I18/COS(RADIANER(J18)))+(K18/COS(RADIANER(L18))))/15+4*((Q18/COS(RADIANER(R18)))/15)+2*((M18/COS(RADIANER(N18)))/15)+((S18/COS(RADIANER(T18)))/15)+((O18/COS(RADIANER(P18)))/15))/10-AN18
Then modified for HP/weight ratio + G pressure modifier / 25

And last but not lest modified by reliability factor, that is based on test results from Arlington, German test centers and soviet test center as well as the above-mentioned experiences.

So. As an example the T-34 has an armor of 10 in this calculation (excellent HP/W ratio and Ground pressure) but because of the poor manufacturing it gets -2. Leaving it at 8, and that is held up against the action and test results published from the above mentioned sources and validated.

The production of allied and German tanks was of much better quality that the soviets, especially at the start of the war, so they often get a bonus to reliability. (it’s a + 1 modifier at the most).

I hope this makes sence.



gliz2 -> RE: FITE 2 (3/6/2021 11:25:00 AM)

@Teufeldk
Airborne: currently the capacity is for only two Brandenburg units at a turn.
Defo 3 wouldn't harm.
And they are quite weak, on their own they are a pray even for militia.
Of course they should not be exploited (which is like with most things a gentleman's agreement).
Maybe allowing use of the survivors from Crete from Oct/Nov'41 (in reality they were used, but as foot soldiers).

As to Caucasus: closing the front, although I cannot say about the effect on gameplay as neither me or my opponents ever went for it.



torbenalbertsen -> RE: FITE 2 (3/6/2021 12:27:46 PM)

OK, thanks for information on armor. Its makes sense then to use the armor to scale other factors that cant be calculated, or have their own variable.

my russian shock troops apreciates the american armor although they complain that its to inflammable....



Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/6/2021 12:31:06 PM)

quote:

@Teufeldk
Airborne: currently the capacity is for only two Brandenburg units at a turn.
Defo 3 wouldn't harm.
And they are quite weak, on their own they are a pray even for militia.
Of course they should not be exploited (which is like with most things a gentleman's agreement).
Maybe allowing use of the survivors from Crete from Oct/Nov'41 (in reality they were used, but as foot soldiers).

As to Caucasus: closing the front, although I cannot say about the effect on gameplay as neither me or my opponents ever went for it.


I think we had it at 3 in earlier version, but it to be a bit too much. It will rise once you have taken Operation Beowulf.

As for the paratroopers from Crete: they are already implemented in the game. The bulk (2 of 3 regiments plus the HQ) of the 7th Flieger Division arrives in early September. The last regiment arrives in mid-November.
The accompanying Glider regiment arrives in late September.



gliz2 -> RE: FITE 2 (3/6/2021 1:03:40 PM)

So, the 5 cm AT PaK could shoot trough the 34 A, and the Tiger although heavy armored, was slow and to heavy for its engine power. That is why the Soviet caught some at Leningrad in 1942. It simply got stuck.
[:-] Dear Sir none of its true.
PAK38 was not effective against frontal armour and according to 42 studies over 70% of T34s were destroyed by shots from the side. The Soviet tankers were very poorly trained.
The case of use of Tigers close to Leningrad was already explained in full: only four of them was available for combat, the heavily forested area had poor drainage, which resulted in large, soft bogs. Surprise a 55 tonnes beast got stuck in muddy terrain.



gliz2 -> RE: FITE 2 (3/6/2021 1:05:33 PM)

@Teufeldk
What is Operation Beowulf?

Maybe better: could you please post the latest manual for the scenario.
I went through the ingame and couldn't find the reference to that Op.Beo[&:]



Lobster -> RE: FITE 2 (3/6/2021 1:32:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: torbenalbertsen

OK, thanks for information on armor. Its makes sense then to use the armor to scale other factors that cant be calculated, or have their own variable.

my russian shock troops apreciates the american armor although they complain that its to inflammable....


The Sherman M4A2 used a diesel powered engine (GM6046) opposed to the petrol engines on most German tanks. Also the M4A2 had changed storage for the ammo so that solved the ignition of the ammo stores that made some earlier versions of the Sherman more likely to brew up. That was because the older Shermans had unprotected ammo stored in several (6?) places about the crew compartment which lead to catastrophic explosions that sometimes launched the turret into the air. The M4A2 was no more flammable than a T-34. In fact the Soviets declared the M4A2 was less likely to catch fire due to ammo detonation than the T-34/76.
This is a fun site. Lots and lots of WW2 photos. http://www.theshermantank.com/tag/sherman/
Old ammo storage layout before changes to prevent detonation:


[image]local://upfiles/45799/09464C01ECE8464687E0D2E3ABC345E8.jpg[/image]



Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/6/2021 1:59:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2

@Teufeldk
What is Operation Beowulf?

Maybe better: could you please post the latest manual for the scenario.
I went through the ingame and couldn't find the reference to that Op.Beo[&:]


Sure it is here.

I believe Beowulf was the operation to - among other things - capture the baltic islands.

It used to be an offensive in FITE, but we changed that when we added the "Offensive Effort" TO.
But we decided to keep it and use it to give a transportation boost to the germans for a single turn.
It could be a good idea to hold on to it until the 7th Flieger Division arrives.



FaneFlugt -> RE: FITE 2 (3/11/2021 9:49:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Teufeldk


quote:

ORIGINAL: FaneFlugt

Concerning the 41-42 soviet Winter offensive in FITE then I agree that a retreating soviet player have a large intact force to smash the german player.

In my opinion, then the only way to counter this as the german is to pull out all of your Panzer divisions before the offensive and keep them mobile and on rail to plug any developing soviet breakthroughs. You should also divide ALL you infantry into their subunits. The loss in overall Combat numbers isnt that bad compared to the problems a breakthrough can create. Put the first line on minimise losses, second line on limit losses and the last line on ignore losses. Spread out you artillery. The amount of losses the soviet player takes is around 5-1, and even with his superior manpower production he will soon start to hurt.

Also in the first 15-20 turns of the soviet offensive, he dosent have that many tanks and when he gets his reinforcments to the front for the last 10 turns, the Germans get tons of flak 8,8 cm units to insert into the most stressed sections of the front. Overall the soviets will have advanced 3-5 hexes and Burnt alot of manpower.

When summer comes you will be able to encircle All those juicy soviet tank armies and hopefully survive another Winter.

I still think there should be some reason to make a drive towards the caucasus in 42 as the germans, there isnt really any in the current scenario.




About the drive towards Caucasus.

You are right that on the face of it there is little reason to go there (I am not sure there were good reasons historically either).

But anyway: if you go there, and you cut the rail line running along the Caspian sea, (maybe with some recon troops) the Russians will be at 50% supply down there making it a good place to kill some Russians.

If you actually take Baku, you will put the Caucasus front out of action since it reconstitutes there. And you get a bonus unit containing:

1000 120mm Mortar sGrW 42
175 7,5cm L/11.8 LeIG 18
24 T-34/76 M43(c)
72 10,5cm L/28 LeFH 18 M
48 8,8 cm L56 FlaK 36/41
24 T34/76 M41(A)
36 15cm L/30 sFH 18
220 50mm Mortar LeGrW 36
24 10,5 L/52 s K 18
44 7,5 L/19,5 Geb G 36

Now I agree that is not much.
In 1942 I think the Germans should attack where they can kill a lot of Russians. And that could be in a place that is relatively poorly defended - the Caucasus might be such a place. If not then attack somewhere else :)




Thanks for the reply.... bum bum bum. The effect and the rewards are not bad but not super either, I agree that it makes the southern trust acceptable if the overall situation allows such a trust.

Ive been wondering about the Italians in the summer of 1942; the axis get a large Italian army. But I cant find any information on when it is withdrawn. Is it tied to an event or a precise date?



Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/11/2021 11:51:22 AM)

Good point!

The Italians are never withdrawn.

I don't think we have ever discussed it - so it seems you have hit on a mistake in the game. They should probably be withdrawn after the invasion of Italy.

I don't think it will matter much in most games since the Italians get so few replacements, that they have probably withered away by 1943.
On the other hand - if they are only used to fight partisans, they will probably be more or less intact.

We will implement their withdrawal in version 2.0






gliz2 -> RE: FITE 2 (3/11/2021 3:19:54 PM)

Please don't!
Such things should be left to players via the Options like partisants or effort chits.
And the more of them the better.

In a game of such scale also the scale of probabilities such be bigger. What if the Italians had not withdrawn in '43?



Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/11/2021 3:35:01 PM)

We can make it an option



Lobster -> RE: FITE 2 (3/11/2021 4:07:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Please don't!
Such things should be left to players via the Options like partisants or effort chits.
And the more of them the better.

In a game of such scale also the scale of probabilities such be bigger. What if the Italians had not withdrawn in '43?


All of them didn't.



FaneFlugt -> RE: FITE 2 (3/11/2021 4:18:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Teufeldk



The Italians are never withdrawn.






[image]local://upfiles/17545/3180AA5376F645B6AC3D629AE58C9B6D.gif[/image]



Teufeldk -> RE: FITE 2 (3/11/2021 6:53:36 PM)

Ha ha ;)



gliz2 -> RE: FITE 2 (3/12/2021 9:19:55 AM)

I assume it is a quite pain in the ass still what I would kindly ask is to give more options to the players.
Like this OP Beowulf. Why could one not increase the air capacity earlier since it's clear that it could have been released?
Or allowing some of the tank reserves (some 800 Pzkpw III and IV) to be released.
There are few options for both sides that could make things more interesting.

PS. If one would like to develop such options what should one read in terms of how to program them and what one should consider from practical experience of development of FITE?



gliz2 -> RE: FITE 2 (3/18/2021 9:27:47 PM)

I would add some thoughts on the design.
1. Trying to artificially duplicate the historical tempo of Barbarossa is futile. Unless House Rules do not demand from Soviet player attacking the Germans there is a big chance even an average player will succeed with delaying tactics till Winter Offensive.
2. The problem is that there is no real simulation of political pressure which was a powerful factor that influenced strategy and tactics. Political leaders were pressuring generals to act (counterattack) in case of aggression. While in game a player can simply only defend.
3. Soviet winter offensive of '41 was not such successful because of the power of the Soviet forces but because of a decision of Hitler which declared no withdrawal policy. Hence currently the Soviet Offensive effects are artificially inflated.
4. Too little in terms of unpredictability. Unfortunately the Soviets players knows that he only need to survive till Winter Offensive kicks in. And then it's more or less game over for ze Germans. And all of this has little to do with historical probabilities and a lot to do with historical programming.
And this is something unfortunately that is almost impossible to overcome because of the game engine.

I wish I could offer some solutions but reality is the issues can only be negotiated by players as the game unfold.
I have the privilege to currently fight against opponent who is also a grognard and veteran of "let's be reasonable about this". However this means things like Soviets not using the Winter Offensive advantage, never checking the expected reinforcement or not following the initial shock rules.

For example the Barbarossa shock rules could be based on reaching 3 out of 5/6 objectives to give operational freedom. Now it is forcing player to go for sometimes useless objectives.



golden delicious -> RE: FITE 2 (3/19/2021 9:39:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Teufeldk


In 1942 I think the Germans should attack where they can kill a lot of Russians. And that could be in a place that is relatively poorly defended - the Caucasus might be such a place. If not then attack somewhere else :)


If the purpose is attrition then I would suggest local offensives with a view to securing a good defensive line, keep the army intact and avoid exposing it to serious defeats. Certainly advancing deep into the Caucasus puts the German's head in a noose.



Hellen_slith -> RE: FITE 2 (4/18/2021 1:21:29 PM)

Sometimes I see entire Corps etc. spawning whole (no subdivided units) while many other times I see replacements spawning as 1/2/3 subdivided units and I have to recombine them, is that because one set is "reinforcements" and the other "replacements"? I let Chelyabinsk go for a while, and then I had to spend about 45 minutes just playing the recombine game.

I wish they would just "wait" until they can re-spawn as a "whole" unit rather than hunting and pecking and waiting for the right units to stack so that I can recombine them.



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