AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (Full Version)

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Rusty1961 -> AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/3/2017 5:31:59 PM)

1. Despite having some of the best ranges for search planes in the game, am I to understand that most experienced JFB don't use the EMILY and MAVIS for their primary search planes?


2. What is the predominant Japanese search plane-aside from the Submarine launched Glenn?


3. Am I also to understand that most seareches beyond 12 hexes fail to turn up anything in a Allied/Japanese search? If so, why is this?

4. What, then, is the point in having the EMILY and MAVIS with these great ranges if they are as effective as other search planes, but they cost so much more? LR Recon? Re-supply? They are expensive planes (4E), so there must be some pressing reason.

Thanks!



geofflambert -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/3/2017 5:46:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

1. Despite having some of the best ranges for search planes in the game, am I to understand that most experienced JFB don't use the EMILY and MAVIS for their primary search planes?


2. What is the predominant Japanese search plane-aside from the Submarine launched Glenn?


3. Am I also to understand that most seareches beyond 12 hexes fail to turn up anything in a Allied/Japanese search? If so, why is this?

4. What, then, is the point in having the EMILY and MAVIS with these great ranges if they are as effective as other search planes, but they cost so much more? LR Recon? Re-supply? They are expensive planes (4E), so there must be some pressing reason.

Thanks!


2. I was not aware that a Japanese sub ever launched John Glenn.



Zecke -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/3/2017 5:53:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

1. Despite having some of the best ranges for search planes in the game, am I to understand that most experienced JFB don't use the EMILY and MAVIS for their primary search planes?



Thanks!


two purposes; plenty of fuel and plenty of armor.



geofflambert -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/3/2017 5:54:30 PM)

I try to get the IJA to handle every job I can get them to since they have more pilots available and the IJN can suffer catastrophically in a carrier battle. I train all the Babs crews to do search as well as recon but I'll use Sally and Helen too. Jake is the most useful floatplane early on in part because you can train fighter pilots with them. Just be careful about setting their ranges if you're using them aboard BBs and cruisers. If you get too close to a big enemy airbase you can lose a lot of searchplanes in a hurry.



geofflambert -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/3/2017 6:00:55 PM)

The larger the arc the more planes you have to have to fill the space properly, and you're not likely to have enough. Try using search arcs and you'll get better results at the longer ranges. One of the advantages of their range is you can move them around very easily. Other uses for them are training torpedo bomber crews and you can also use them as transports for supplies or air drops, even the regular bomber versions.



Dili -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/3/2017 6:01:55 PM)

Outdated.



Rusty1961 -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/3/2017 6:06:17 PM)

So what is the primary IJA search plane?



Rusty1961 -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/3/2017 6:06:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I try to get the IJA to handle every job I can get them to since they have more pilots available and the IJN can suffer catastrophically in a carrier battle. I train all the Babs crews to do search as well as recon but I'll use Sally and Helen too. Jake is the most useful floatplane early on in part because you can train fighter pilots with them. Just be careful about setting their ranges if you're using them aboard BBs and cruisers. If you get too close to a big enemy airbase you can lose a lot of searchplanes in a hurry.

Thank you, Gorn.



Rusty1961 -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/3/2017 6:08:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zecke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

1. Despite having some of the best ranges for search planes in the game, am I to understand that most experienced JFB don't use the EMILY and MAVIS for their primary search planes?



Thanks!


two purposes; plenty of fuel and plenty of armor.




My understanding is they DON'T use them for search. Are you implying they do?



Zecke -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/3/2017 6:20:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zecke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

1. Despite having some of the best ranges for search planes in the game, am I to understand that most experienced JFB don't use the EMILY and MAVIS for their primary search planes?



Thanks!


two purposes; plenty of fuel and plenty of armor.




My understanding is they DON'T use them for search. Are you implying they do?


they do..but; they do the same as the allied 4 engine catalinas if neccesary..so put japan to night attack better.
(emylys)



InfiniteMonkey -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/3/2017 7:10:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

1. Despite having some of the best ranges for search planes in the game, am I to understand that most experienced JFB don't use the EMILY and MAVIS for their primary search planes?


2. What is the predominant Japanese search plane-aside from the Submarine launched Glenn?


3. Am I also to understand that most seareches beyond 12 hexes fail to turn up anything in a Allied/Japanese search? If so, why is this?

4. What, then, is the point in having the EMILY and MAVIS with these great ranges if they are as effective as other search planes, but they cost so much more? LR Recon? Re-supply? They are expensive planes (4E), so there must be some pressing reason.

Thanks!

You do not get very many of units that can fly them. At game start, you only get 57 spread among 5 groups (18/12/12/9/6) and another 58 (18/12/12/12/4) as reinforcements. There is too much open ocean to search. With an SR of 4, the actual number you will have available on any given day is lower than that. You can only search a depressingly small amount of ocean if they are the only units you use for search.

I augment my search in a lot of ways, but some depends upon your HR's on resizing/position upon whether it is gamey to resize dramatically.

- I usually order all my TB/DB/Netty squadrons to have some percentage set to search.
- I train/order all my recon (IJA and IJN both) to naval Search when I can.
- I resize float plane groups to 24 on CS CHitose/Chiyoda. With the Jake, each of those groups can do a range 8/10 search. Once the E15K1 Norm appears, you can extend that to 12/15 hexes. The Norm has an SR of 3 though, so you will have to rest a percentage of your air group or overstaff with pilots and planes.
- I resize the IJN recon squadrons to 81 in late 42 (requires D4Y1-C to move to carrier) and use them both for recon and search. Each of the 3 can be split into /A /B and /C divisions and you can set them to 60 NavS/20 RecN/20 Rest. You can then cover a full arc of 180 degrees out to 17/21 with drop tanks, recon a location up to 21 hexes away and rest some of the pilots / repair some of the planes each turn.
- I know that I have detected Force Z from Netty's flying out of Saigon at range 14, so I think the assertion that NavS does not detect TF's beyond range 12 is inaccurate. I was testing search arcs at the time and had stood down every air group in the game, both Allied and Japanese, except for the search squadron in question.

I've actually seen issues with search arcs not working. I have turned arcs on for all groups and then saved the turn. I then ran the turn and I failed to detect TF's under 10 hexes away. I've then took that saved turn and turned one search group to use random search. When I re-ran the turn, it found TF's over 12 hexes away in addition to those closer. This did not happen just once - I observed this dozens of times while I tested various details of how First day Move bonus task forces worked. I tried setting the search planes of TF 3 (Ryujo) and TF 89 (CS's) to arcs aimed in the Northwest quadrant to maximize spotting (I thought) of ships escaping Manila. I figured that with the panes flying out of Babeldaob I was covered behind me and wanted to focus on the kill zone in the Sulu and Celebes Seas. Funny thing though - nothing was spotted til I removed the arcs. I even saved the turn and peeked at the Allied side to see if there were TF's in the search arcs. There were at least a dozen. I do not use search arcs. People here swear by them, but I've seen too much flaky behavior with them to want to use them.



Rusty1961 -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/3/2017 9:48:07 PM)

Thank you, gusy.



Lokasenna -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/4/2017 1:21:20 AM)

The main reason for not using Mavis and Emily much in searches is mostly that you only get a handful of groups that use them, whereas you get a glut of IJAAF and IJNAF recon planes with great range that can perform the duties just as well.



adarbrauner -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/4/2017 6:42:24 AM)

InfiniteMonkey's note about the inefficiency of search arcs;

having noted some of the failures you pointed out, I'd really like to know how the search arc feature works (given that none had been yet able to explain it in the forum, as much as I could have been able to search);



Barb -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/4/2017 7:19:05 AM)

The number of air groups available for H6K and H8K is very limited, so the Japanese player has to augment it in any way he can.

G3M3 are next best choice, followed by training all IJN/IJA Recon groups on Naval Search.
E13A will greatly supplement short-range search and there usually are enough air groups resizable to something meaning full, as well as enough AV conversions to help with support.
J1N1-C, D4Y1-C and Ki-46-III Dinah will serve greatly and can operate even against enemy carriers - they are fast and much easier to escape after spotting than H6K/H8K/E13A do.



witpqs -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/4/2017 11:39:49 AM)

I also get search hits beyond 12 hexes. I cannot give you numbers. Comments I recall are that the chances drop off greatly at long range. Also the longer range the mission the greater the number of ops losses over time.



Lokasenna -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/4/2017 5:02:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I also get search hits beyond 12 hexes. I cannot give you numbers. Comments I recall are that the chances drop off greatly at long range. Also the longer range the mission the greater the number of ops losses over time.


The key is that, as you go out another hex of range, the number of hexes within a 10-degree arc (which the plane is searching) decreases.

Assume there are 36 planes, each searching 10 degrees from a base.

At range 1, there are only 6 hexes - there will be 6 planes searching each hex. At range 2, there are 12 hexes so it is 3 planes per hex. At range 3, there are 18 hexes, so there are still 2 planes searching each hex.

Once you hit range 6, there are 36 hexes (I think) on the outer ring of the search range, so only 1 plane is covering each hex. Beyond this, there is "less than" 1 plane per hex, but that's not quite how it really works. Without going back to search for posts by Alfred and TheElf (I think), I am pretty sure that planes will search multiple hexes of width within their search arc (once going out, one returning to base?)...

But the basic gist is that since searches are arc-based, once you get out to a certain range there will be gaps because it will take more than 1 plane per 10-degree arc to cover the distance that is "under" the arc umbrella shown on the map (if you push 'Z').



Uncivil Engineer -> RE: AFB question on Japanese Searches, Search planes, range, etc.... (12/4/2017 7:58:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

1. Despite having some of the best ranges for search planes in the game, am I to understand that most experienced JFB don't use the EMILY and MAVIS for their primary search planes?

Because of their high SR and limited numbers, I use Mavis and Emily for point recon, not search.
The primary search planes are Babs, Dinah, and Jake supplemented by a percentage of Nells and Betties otherwise doing naval attack, and on CV's a small percentage of Vals, etc. Other types come in later, such as Judy-C, Irving-C, and Rex.

2. What is the predominant Japanese search plane-aside from the Submarine launched Glenn?


3. Am I also to understand that most seareches beyond 12 hexes fail to turn up anything in a Allied/Japanese search? If so, why is this?

4. What, then, is the point in having the EMILY and MAVIS with these great ranges if they are as effective as other search planes, but they cost so much more? LR Recon? Re-supply? They are expensive planes (4E), so there must be some pressing reason.

Thanks!




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