Tiger vs T-34. advice need ! (Full Version)

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steel -> Tiger vs T-34. advice need ! (5/31/2001 9:32:00 PM)

I been taking pbem game With Russian side vs Germany.It is only Tiger vs T-34 battle ! Battle is summer and large map with 5000 battle points ,witch can promise 38 guantity T34 and 28,5 Tiger.Very hard battle i think. I will tell detailed battle report later when battle is ended.If i been alive :( Tell me your opinion how battle maybe ended. Ps.I will need a lot off strategy advice from all SPWAW members ! Thanks and Tortefeasor dont read this thread at all.There is maybe secret information how beat Tiger with T-34 (76,2mm gun) Steel :rolleyes: ;)



Resisti -> (5/31/2001 10:02:00 PM)

Steel,if you're running version 5.01,you will want to play the two tutorials provided with the game which are EXACTLY abt yr request: Tiger vs. T34 and viceversa. It's a must !



steel -> (5/31/2001 10:22:00 PM)

Yes i use 5.01. I will take tour the scenarios. Thanks Resisti. Steel :)



achappelle -> (5/31/2001 10:34:00 PM)

Flank attack with your T34s, use one platoon to "fix" the Tigers in place, suppress them ad make them use up op fire, then use another platoon to hit their weak flanks. T34's speed helps with this. Try to move and attack in such a way that you get alll your tanks able to fire at one Tiger, and minimize the number of tanks able to fire back. Sometimes having Tank Desant troops dismount and throw smoke to create "fire lanes" A little arty prep fire on top of the Tigers helps too, strips any infantry support from them, and adds suppression.



Larry Holt -> (5/31/2001 11:04:00 PM)

In any situation where you are faced with fighting an opponent who has heavier units than you: Use your superior numbers to maneuver around to take shots against vulnerable flank and rear sides. Once you have units firing from multiple directions, no matter which way they turn, you can get a rear shot. Take lots of shots. Even if you can't hope to achieve a penetrating hit, you might break the main gun or its optics or disable its suspension. In either case, your opponent can not fight it successfully. Infantry close assaults are deadly!



Charles2222 -> (6/1/2001 12:24:00 AM)

If I understood steel correctly, he's talking about a battle with ONLY Tigers and T34s, in other words no other untis allowed. I think the best the T34/76 user can expect is a draw, and by that I mean a relatively even point total on both sides. Some of the AOE type unit testing that went on a while back, found the "T34/85" losing by something of a 2.9 to 1.0 margin, so it don't look good. I even wonder if the T34/76 can pierce the side hull armor of the Tiger at range 10 or greater.



achappelle -> (6/1/2001 1:33:00 AM)

Historically, the Sovs lost about 5 tanks to 1 German, so 2.9 to 1 is a pretty good engagement result. I would say that better tactics are necessary, for example, if your gun can't penetrate the side of a Tiger @ more than 10 hexes, lay some smoke and get in close.



Tortfeasor -> (6/1/2001 2:08:00 AM)

So the Russian T34-43s are getting help with the tactics. Dont wory Steel I will not read those tips you get. I dont think it will be to hard to get this game to an quick ending, just remember Steel to tie you on your chair. Mayby I can use the same tactics as the russians :D



Figmo -> (6/1/2001 8:08:00 AM)

Steel, The only adice I can give is get in close. That's what the Russians did at Prokhorovka. So put out a lot of smoke and CHARGE!! But honestly, if you don't have at least two to one odds - you are going to die!! :eek: Figmo



Redleg -> (6/1/2001 8:39:00 AM)

Look at the points that a T34 costs vs what a Tiger costs..... you cannot afford to lose 5 T34s for every Tiger. I am glad I am not playing the Soviet in that battle. Can you can use your speed to get the Tigers coming to you??????? Some stationary short range shots at moving Tigers might be useful. Some other T34s drawing fire at long range to use up the Tigers AP rounds might be good. If Command/Control is off, that will help your maneuver a lot and aid in drawing fire and then getting back to safety. My T34s typically fire once and then die. :)



Tortfeasor -> (6/1/2001 11:00:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22: If I understood steel correctly, he's talking about a battle with ONLY Tigers and T34s, in other words no other untis allowed.
You understood it correctly Charles. For 5000 points we purchased Tigers and T-34-43s. in a year 1943 time frame. I wonder if it is posible to drive the Tiger to the same hex as the T34-m43 and press alt/o button. :rolleyes:



Charles2222 -> (6/1/2001 8:12:00 PM)

quote:

I wonder if it is posible to drive the Tiger to the same hex as the T34-m43 and press alt/o button.
Yeah, that sounds like a good desperation tactic. A couple of problems though, with what appears to have been intended to be a silly remark: a) The Tiger is the larger of the two and probably has more MGs, therefore T34 loses again. b) I don't think overruns can commence on other armor, and it would be slightly ridiculous if it did, unless we were talking about overrunning T26s with Tigers. Yes, but what about trying a melee? I guess armor can't do it, right? Maybe the T34s could hope to blow off all the Tiger tracks and then run away and just subject them to emough suppresive fire that they would abandon them? One huge advantage the T34 has, however, is how quickly it'll accumulate those deadly crews running about. So, I say, either overrun, melee, or get destroyed deliberately so the real strength of that Russian tank can show forth (the crews of course). Unleashing the T34 crews will guarantee a draw :rolleyes: !



Charles2222 -> (6/1/2001 8:19:00 PM)

And you and I both thought I was kidding. See this from the special oofire thread (how timely):
quote:

No, I did nothing of the kind. I ran a closed top Sig up next to a fieldwork. No infantry of any kind were hurt in this exchange. Hell, these are the same kind of crew that bail out of wrecked T-34s. And yet three of these demigods had a better than 3 in 4 chance of wrecking an SP gun with an AAMG, facing them 50 meters away, using nothing but "assorted small arms". Having just been blown through the wall of a machine gun nest by a direct hit from a 15 cm shell, they did this. The heck with the machine guns, I'm bailing my Soviet crews out and using them to close assault!



Tortfeasor -> (6/2/2001 2:57:00 AM)

My first! shot that I have fired in this game, went through the front pansar of the ex T-34 from a distans of over 600 meters. :D The score is now Ger - Ruski 2 - 0 I try to get 38 - 0. :p



Tortfeasor -> (6/2/2001 3:07:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22: Unleashing the T34 crews will guarantee a draw :rolleyes: !
If he unleashes the crews, then I would unleashe one tank crew of mine and they would destroy the T-34 by standing in the same hex one move. :cool: . It might work.



Charles2222 -> (6/2/2001 6:27:00 AM)

Tortfeasor: You're going to have to ride a careful balance there. If you see him use the dirty trick of resorting to using crews, then start direct-bombarding hexes, in the hopes of creating craters. The reason you will need the craters is because when you counter his sneaky crew attack, with your crews abandoning your own tanks, then you can once again have the advantage by placing your own crews in the cover of the craters.



Fabio Prado -> (6/2/2001 11:43:00 AM)

The Tiger I was the main T-34 predator in the Russian battlefields during 1943-early 44. When facing Tiger Heavy Battalions, the Russian odds were not 5 to 1, but 10 to 1 (from 20 September 1943 to 10 January 1944, the s.PzAbt.506 reported 213 Russian tanks and 194 anti-tank guns destroyed at a loss of 19 Tigers)! However, Tigers were not indestructible. Many good tactics were already described in this thread, so I will only emphasize the core of the T-34 tactics against Tigers... 1.The Tiger is essentially an open field weapon.This means that if you are facing them in an open steppe, with little or none features that can enable you to sneak closer and closer to them, you are in trouble! But if you can get closer and make many T-34 fire at the same Tiger from the sides or better yet, from the rear, you'll have a reasonable chance to disable it and even to destroy it. 2.The Tiger's main asset is not its armor, but its gun. It was the combination of the thicker armor plus the effective range of the 88mm KwK 36L/56 that enabled the Tigers to dominate an open battlefield by being able to destroy his opponents from a distance where they couldn't harm it. So, what the Russians did were to do their best to negate the Tiger's firepower advantage, by getting as closer as they could without the Tiger's crews spotting them. I hope this helps... ;) Fab [ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: Fabio Prado ]



Gallo Rojo -> (6/2/2001 9:33:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by steel: I been taking pbem game With Russian side vs Germany.It is only Tiger vs T-34 battle ! Battle is summer and large map with 5000 battle points ,witch can promise 38 guantity T34 and 28,5 Tiger.Very hard battle i think. I will tell detailed battle report later when battle is ended.If i been alive :( Tell me your opinion how battle maybe ended. Ps.I will need a lot off strategy advice from all SPWAW members ! Thanks and Tortefeasor dont read this thread at all.There is maybe secret information how beat Tiger with T-34 (76,2mm gun) Steel :rolleyes: ;)
Only Tigers vs T-34? :eek: There is a way: you need at least 3 T-34/76 for each Tiger. If you have less that this you’re a dead man walking. :(



RaidR -> (6/2/2001 10:45:00 PM)

I'm currently playing a soviet long WW2 campaign, and only came across one tiger platoon when playing a defence mission. The tigers pretty much wasted every Kv-1 and T-34 tank in my core force, luckily I purchased a Kv-85mm platoon from my support points and even immobilized and eventually destroyed one of 5 the tigers. :p The main problem at destroying tigers with any 75 mm tank is that it has no real weak point. The historical weak point of the tiger should be it's lower side hull with "only" 40 mm armor, but since SPwaw armor only has upper chassis and turret armor there is no exploiting this weak spot. Trying to knock out a tiger with T-34's only is like knocking out a T-34 with a pzIII 37mm btw. I actually won that defence mission because the AI surrendered, altough I had 4 katusha's (w/ ammo carrier), 4 x 120 mortars and 3 x 80 mm mortars firing at his infantery simultaniously he could still have won with about 3 pzIIIj's and 4 tigers left..perhaps a bug :confused:



steel -> (6/3/2001 1:56:00 AM)

I just burried two t-34.They had no change shoot back to Tiger, When Tiger see them (10hex and front), it 50-80% accurate gunshots blow my first two courious T-34 to hell. No change to win at all i think.If my tanks see a Tiger somewhere, it is same that looking at death to aye. Was there in WW2 really Tiger vs T-34 fights, how do hell they manages it ? My best strategy probably is bail out all screws and let them assault few Tigers and after that died in peace :( Steel is coming back Tortefeasor :mad: :mad: Thanks all for strategy advice.



Tortfeasor -> (6/4/2001 11:01:00 AM)

almoust all of my shots that I have fired, went through the front armor of the T-34 from a distans of over 600 meters. The score is now Ger - Ruski 25 - 4. So the ods is 6 - 1. I made two mistakes, otherwise it had been 25 - 2. :p So, the expensive Tiger costs 169 and the cheap T34-m43 costs 131. isn`t there something wrong with the pricing, T34-m43 should have a price tag of under 100 points if you are going the use that tank at all.



mogami -> (6/4/2001 6:06:00 PM)

The cost differance between Tigers and T-34's have been "discussed" in many threads. They are based strictly on armour/gun/speed ratings and not on how common a tank was. (ver 5.01 is supposed to limit the amount of "rare" tanks I am suprised it let the german spend 5000 points on Tigers) The basic problem is the points you start with. While 5000 versus 5000 appears fair it is not. Had Germany only faced 1-1 odds they would have won the war before the Tiger ever came into production. Taking even points against a German player in meeting engagements is asking for a butt kicking. :eek: Getting a German player to allow more points is tricky unless they realize it also allows them the chance to score an even larger victory. try 15000 soviet T-34 points versus 5000 German Tiger points. (and make map woods/swamp/city any thing but clear. For real agony use Shermans against Tigers (Shermans blow up so much better) The German Tiger units usally had MK-III/IV assigned as "escorts" to keep the enemy tanks off the Tigers flanks and rear [ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: Mogami ]



achappelle -> (6/4/2001 10:26:00 PM)

15k vs 5k, hats a lot of tanks, we're taking Kursk all over again. Of course there's a case where T34s stood up pretty good against the Tigers and Panthers. 700 tanks dead from both sides, and I don't think the ratio was 5 to 1. And that was even before the 85mm D5t or Zis were added to the T34. Tank v tank battles were the exception rather than the norm. You wan to beat Tigers? Use all the weapons at your disposal, art to suppress and blind them, T34s for flank shots, or crawl over them with Tank Desant troops. Don't get into a one on one tank duel, it's a losing formula.



Tortfeasor -> (6/5/2001 2:17:00 AM)

I wonder if this strategy game calculates the angel of the armour as genuine as in the real physical world. I dont know howe to say this but I`l try. What I am trying to say is that if you have a tank that is exactly as a shoebox with 0 degrees angel on front, rear and side armour. If you shoot strait at it to the armour (perpendicular), then the bullet would not bounce of because the angel is 0 degrees, but if you shoot at it from little more left (or right) then the bulet would bounce of it because the angel is let say 45 degrees. I know that this game calculates the vertical angel. But what about the "horisontal" angel. I think that when they desinged the Tiger they did concidred that "horisontal" angel effect. :confused: Please help me to be understod. [ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: Tortfeasor ]



lnp4668 -> (6/5/2001 2:56:00 AM)

Have you tried to hide the T34s in crossfire position and wait for the Tigers to come to you? May at least gets a draw if both sides just sit there :D



Mike Wood -> (6/5/2001 2:58:00 AM)

Hello... Yes, the game calculates the horizontal angle as well as the verticle. Bye... Michael Wood



Tortfeasor -> (6/5/2001 10:56:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by lnp4668: Have you tried to hide the T34s in crossfire position and wait for the Tigers to come to you? May at least gets a draw if both sides just sit there :D
Steel is hiding with his two! tanks that he have left. I gave an oil can to each of his officer and then I meeleed his HQ unit Brrrrrrrrrr. :D :D :D :D :D :D [ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: Tortfeasor ]



mogami -> (6/6/2001 10:32:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Aleksandr Morozov: 15k vs 5k, hats a lot of tanks, we're taking Kursk all over again. Of course there's a case where T34s stood up pretty good against the Tigers and Panthers. 700 tanks dead from both sides, and I don't think the ratio was 5 to 1. And that was even before the 85mm D5t or Zis were added to the T34. Tank v tank battles were the exception rather than the norm. You wan to beat Tigers? Use all the weapons at your disposal, art to suppress and blind them, T34s for flank shots, or crawl over them with Tank Desant troops. Don't get into a one on one tank duel, it's a losing formula.
Hi, It would not be Kursk all over again. The thread is a Tiger versus T-34 (no inf/art/air ect 5kvrs5k 34T-34 28 Tiger an easy win for the Tiger. 15k-5k 102 T-34 28 Tiger (he might run out of ammo before he runs out of T-34 targets) But still each Tiger only has to kill 3.6 T-34's well within the realm of possibility (probability) [ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: Mogami ]



Tortfeasor -> (6/6/2001 3:52:00 PM)

Now the battle is over, the smoke of burning Russian tanks fills the air, its a wonderful feeling to stand there with the enemy prisoners looking up to my Tigers command cupola, where I am standing, it will be nice to wash my boots in the beach of my ex-enemy, and drink a sixpack or A big cup of black coffee. The results of my victory`s battle report is following. Steel`s Russian 831 to Tortfeasor`s Germany 7256 (AFVs lost 37pcs T-34-m43 and 1 abandoned, 202 heroes lost . 4 Tiger lost and 1 abandoned. 29 heroes lost) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D [ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Tortfeasor ]



chanman -> (6/6/2001 11:35:00 PM)

Sorry Steel, you were beaten before a move was taken. Betcha had to turn the rarity factors off for Tortfeasor to buy 5000 pts of Tigers. Those rarity factors are there for a reason. Just a few Tigers on the field can have a huge impact, as pointed out by a previous poster. 15k points T34 vs 5k points Tiger might be interesting, but I am not predicting a victory here either. Too many previous posters have pointed out strategies for beating Tigers for me to add much value. My main comment is this: In all the years I have been playing SP (SP1, then SPWaW), my only really "successful" Russian long campaign force was infantry heavy with a few KV and plenty of supporting arty. I beat Tigers by suppressing them with arty and then close assaulting them with infantry. By the time the Tigers took the field, my infantry was pretty good, so those tactics were workable. Actually had to use those tactics for any 88mm weapon, towed, SP or Tiger. I believe that AmmoSgt has made similar comments about winning with US. Chanman



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