RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (Full Version)

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Harrybanana -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/12/2018 6:36:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I feel little pitty being on the receiving end of level 3 Panzers at the opening of Barbarossa.

The breakthroughs are another strong element of luck in this game. I believe I mentioned this in my suggestion thread where I proposed to soften them. [:'(]


I don't know what to think of them. I like an unsuspected windfall as much as the next guy but I would agree that tech acquisition should be slowed. I could get behind a 'Major advances in tech x, giving a 25% bonus in a tech' instead of breakthroughs. But in the grans scheme of things, I guess breakthrough wouldn't be so bad if a 1 tech gap didn't have such a big impact on result. In Russia, my air went from going 1:1 to 1:4 overnight. Ouch! However, the sea seems ok. It's seems it's those tech that go level 3 and over that seems to make the combat math particularly ruthless and bloody. With them forget a proacted battle of Britain, air groups are dying left and right within 1-2 turns. [:)]


Breakthroughs work both ways and generally even out over the course of the game. I assume you must have gotten a few tech breakthroughs yourself, especially with the Russians who have at least tech 3 Advanced Aircraft, Tanks and Infantry weapons before the end of 42. This is unlike diplomacy on the US and USSR which can greatly favour one side or the other.

However, as you know I am very much in favour of reducing the luck element in the game. So I agree with your proposal to reduce the maximum gain to 25% to slow down tech advances. But only if something is also done to reduce the mobilization gains of diplomacy hits on the US and USSR while also reducing the cost of diplomacy chits for them to 50 MPPs as was suggested in another thread.



KorutZelva -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/12/2018 7:20:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Breakthroughs work both ways and generally even out over the course of the game.



They do, they do. Russians were blessed by breakthrough in '42, getting one for inf 3, tank 3 and air 4. USA had a tank breakthrough a long time ago also, and that just about completes the portrait. However a late return to mean won't help much once the die is cast. They also don't have equal value. A USA breakthrough on tanks in 1941 don't do much because USA is not expected to field a significant number of tanks in combat until a couple more years.

Breakthrough don't scale with investment past the first chit so it's not something as scaleable as diplomacy. Diplomacy you can counter via your own chit, working the % down or even eliminating it. Breakthrough you can only 'counter' via spy tech (which usually both sides keeps on top of) or hoping for breakthrough of your own.

Could the mechanism be improved? Yes I guess. I don't mind breakthrough one bit though. That said I do wonder the impact on the combat math if aircraft (and maybe tank) combat ability went up by 0.5 instead of the 1 per tech level (perhaps adding to the 1 tech level max).



KorutZelva -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/12/2018 9:35:40 AM)

I made a mess of the euro mines, cut the norweigian convoy, stopped the swedish convoy, USSR hold everything west and south of Rostov and the UK are still clings to all the southern oil field in iraq-persia but germany still rakes over 1300 mpp. [X(] That doesn't count an inflated italy that has Algeria, egypt, palestine, transjordan and greece diverting those mpp away from germany.

Germany's industry is probably maxed out at 5 but that still seems high for what HarryBanana holds.



Harrybanana -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/12/2018 9:00:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Breakthroughs work both ways and generally even out over the course of the game.



They do, they do. Russians were blessed by breakthrough in '42, getting one for inf 3, tank 3 and air 4. USA had a tank breakthrough a long time ago also, and that just about completes the portrait. However a late return to mean won't help much once the die is cast. They also don't have equal value. A USA breakthrough on tanks in 1941 don't do much because USA is not expected to field a significant number of tanks in combat until a couple more years.



Germany starts with tech level 1 Advanced Aircraft and I believe Russia starts with tech 0. So if Russia is now equal to Germany in this tech I can only assume that it received at least 2 and more likely 3 tech breakthroughs in this tech.





Harrybanana -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/12/2018 9:06:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

I made a mess of the euro mines, cut the norweigian convoy, stopped the swedish convoy, USSR hold everything west and south of Rostov and the UK are still clings to all the southern oil field in iraq-persia but germany still rakes over 1300 mpp. [X(] That doesn't count an inflated italy that has Algeria, egypt, palestine, transjordan and greece diverting those mpp away from germany.

Germany's industry is probably maxed out at 5 but that still seems high for what HarryBanana holds.


I wouldn't go so far as to say you made a "mess" of the euromines. They have all come back on line, albeit perhaps not yet at full strength and the Norwegian Convoys are running again as well. But I don't disagree with you at all that German industry can become way overpowered and IMHO US industry is underpowered compared to historical. It is I believe a design choice to give the Axis an equal chance to win the War; a chance which they did not have historically. Not saying I agree with this design choice (I don't) but we are probably stuck with it.



Taxman66 -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/12/2018 9:29:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

I wouldn't go so far as to say you made a "mess" of the euromines. They have all come back on line, albeit perhaps not yet at full strength and the Norwegian Convoys are running again as well. But I don't disagree with you at all that German industry can become way overpowered and IMHO US industry is underpowered compared to historical. It is I believe a design choice to give the Axis an equal chance to win the War; a chance which they did not have historically. Not saying I agree with this design choice (I don't) but we are probably stuck with it.


If you made the industry (and other factors) more historical then you wind up having to change the victory conditions. It would all be about when the Axis fall, not 'if'.



KorutZelva -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/12/2018 11:03:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

I wouldn't go so far as to say you made a "mess" of the euromines. They have all come back on line, albeit perhaps not yet at full strength and the Norwegian Convoys are running again as well. But I don't disagree with you at all that German industry can become way overpowered and IMHO US industry is underpowered compared to historical. It is I believe a design choice to give the Axis an equal chance to win the War; a chance which they did not have historically. Not saying I agree with this design choice (I don't) but we are probably stuck with it.


C'mon, half-strength counts as 'a mess' and they only recouped because I switch to drain nearby capital cities. [:D].

If I look at Taifun vs BSPInisback game in crispy mod (september 43) and compare it to our current situation Germany +Causcasus +Turkey -algeria -egypt -Vichy -Spain, earns 1000 mpp. This feels about right.

I wonder if Bill and Hubert would be willing to share the Axis win-loss ratio as per the last patch. [:)]

September around moskov

[image]http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4603/38959189774_2f271c8dc3_b.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/13/2018 12:30:37 PM)

It is now early 1943. But here is what the Russian Front looked like on July 19, 1942. Since this date the Axis have captured Kalinin, Kaluga, Tula and Bryansk in the North and are now pressed up against the outer fortifications of Moscow. In the South Rostov has been captured and the Axis are within a few hexes of Stalingrad. Meanwhile the Allies have been driven out of the Middle East and the Axis are at the gates of Tehran.

But Russian ground strength has grown greatly over the Fall and Winter and the Russians are the equal of the Germans in the important techs of Infantry Weapons, Advanced Tanks and Advanced Aircraft. The Western Allies have regained most of their air strength lost in Iraq. Where will they attack/invade? Only France lies within range of their aircraft.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/2E2E685A17A9443A904C8C07BEA7DDEC.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/13/2018 12:46:21 PM)

The Front around Moscow as of my December 1942.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/EA616C3766544A849C80A521B6AFDE9D.jpg[/image]



KorutZelva -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/14/2018 12:07:26 AM)

Front lines in december 1942

[image]http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4704/39675724331_17e078d9e5_b.jpg[/image]

Currently playing april 43... War is about to hot in the east.

Germany and Italy trying to get to the caucasus by the south. USSR making small incursions in between Moskov and Rostov, scouting the defensive lines. Amphibious landing at melitopol to steal the mine a few turn. I had cut all the rail line except the one going through stalino for to the army group targeting stalingrad and it got hit by a partisan supply... didn't seem to affect supply to the units on the front one bit however... [sm=sign0003.gif]



KorutZelva -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/14/2018 7:57:53 AM)

Bad weather in the east continues to slows any intention of doing a major offensive. Germany destroy its first bit of fortification around moskov putting them with 2 Hexes of the western part of the city, the russian counter attack with artillery and an armoured offensive, destroying the offending heavy tank and reoccupying the hex.

After a long lull, Germany finally resumes major raiding operation of the allies convoy line, knocking out Canada and Saudi convoys.

Allies continue to play an aggressive diplo game, chipping at the swedede. After a major diplohit, Sweden is at 78% pro-ally.



Taifun -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/14/2018 5:06:55 PM)

Enjoying greatly this AAR. Thanks for all the info learning a lot. Could one of you please post the current headcount and the graph of Great Britain convoy U-boot MPPs losses?



Harrybanana -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 12:09:44 AM)

Your wish is our command. Here are the Charts showing UK Convoy losses to raiders and current headcount as of my last completed turn of June 25, 1943. On this turn Moscow was captured. Of the big three USSR Cities only Stalingrad remains in Russian hands.

As you can see the U-Boat war has been a big disappointment for the German High Command. Very few UK MPPs were sunk. But after the capture of the Middle East does it really matter?

As you can also see the current number of Axis land combat units is off the table (though just barely at 152). Many of these are garrisons, but it is still ridiculously high.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/B8A1E5146A3C4F1BB8C669E606D2FAAD.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 12:13:39 AM)

Here is the situation around Moscow a couple turns ago (May 11, 1943) at the end of the Axis turn.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/21422D9977114AC08D737A1768C12D0D.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 12:15:53 AM)

Stalingrad area, also May 11, 1943.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/A0FD54827515484D8C90C106C852AB12.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 12:17:20 AM)

Finally the Border between Persia and the USSR.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/6B1D86B1B45E4FF3ADE70652557AF19E.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 12:28:07 AM)

KZ mentioned earlier the "cookie cutter" script to be followed by the Axis to almost guarantee victory. I myself fell victim to this same script in a previous game against an expert player (my only loss as the Allies so far) and have tried to duplicate it in this game. After KZs very successful (and I still whine lucky) uber-diplomacy on the US I truly did not think I could pull it off. But barring some miracle on KZ's part or some major gaffe on my part (which I am not ruling out yet) I don't think I can be stopped. We will know in a few more turns.



KorutZelva -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 12:49:18 AM)

Yepp... When I couldn't hold on both Casanblanca and Iraq, I knew my goose was cooked. I needed one (preferably both) to stay in it. [:)]

I couldn't convert the allies economic advantages into success on the field. I had early on decided to go 'all air' with the allies... which I still think was the right call in this situation. I did overdo it on the USA bombers, I should have swapped a couple of them in favor of more fighters. A timely axis diplohit on the USA kept them just long enough out of the war so that by the time they had arrived in Iraq, Axis supply was no longer critical. However, I should have not committed that many troop to egypt and went to turtle in Iraq to fight on more advantageous supply situation. When I was swimming in money I got a bit cocky thinking I could hold on everything just by sheer economic muscle. That plus I had wrongly assumed Axis air was back in Europe for Barbarossa. [:D]



KorutZelva -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 2:11:58 AM)

1-2-3!

HBK pins the KZtonk man and is the new Intercontinental champion!

[sm=happy0065.gif]



Sugar -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 3:00:39 AM)

Congratulations to the winner and many thx for a very entertaining AAR to the both of you!

But one last remark: KZ, you didn`t decide to go "all air" early on, you decided to go "all diplo". Maybe uber diplo is not that uber?



KorutZelva -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 3:37:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Congratulations to the winner and many thx for a very entertaining AAR to the both of you!

But one last remark: KZ, you didn`t decide to go "all air" early on, you decided to go "all diplo". Maybe uber diplo is not that uber?


What I meant by that was that the decision to have the allied armies mostly air based was made early. UK went with fighters and AA, relying on starting land units (and spawns) for support. USA maxed out their air unit before building any land ones.

Uber diplo gave is what this dude a fighting chance against a guy higher up on the food chain. You would have thought that HB's lamentations for the 2 year and a half of the AAR would have made it abundantly evident. [sm=crazy.gif]



Sugar -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 5:30:28 AM)

quote:

Uber diplo gave is what this dude a fighting chance against a guy higher up on the food chain. You would have thought that HB's lamentations for the 2 year and a half of the AAR would have made it abundantly evident.


Sorry, if I don`t get what you mean, english isn't my first language. Do you mean HB to be superior to you, so that uber was providing a better chance for you? And that HB's "lamento" was proving it to be right?

If so, and from what I´ve noticed so far, the only prove was the brit. weakness in NA following those heavy investments, and the am. appearance still too late to turn the tide, although you achieved more hits than expected.

Your 2. strat. could be far more successfull, if you`d use all available aircraft and navy to destroy Axis` deployment in NA.



Harrybanana -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 5:40:25 AM)

Thank you very much for the game KZ, you were an excellent opponent. If it is any consolation to you I was finished by 42 in the game I played against this Axis Strategy; at least you made it to 43.

This Axis Strategy is essentially as follows:

1. Prioritize Advanced Aircraft tech and also research Long range aircraft (more important than many people think)
2. Build the Manstein HQ ASAP,
3. Build all your Fighters, Tanks, TAC and, if possible, HQs prior to DAK arrival (I believe this is pretty standard anyway),
4. Get Spain on the Axis side, preferably by diplomacy,
5. Send Manstein to Libya to join Rommel (well actually even before Rommel arrives)
6. Use the Luftwaffe on mass, first to take Malta, then Egypt, then Russia. If necessary also use the Luftwaffe on mass to take Algeria and the Middle East.
7. Don't be afraid to "operate" the Luftwaffe to wherever it is needed.
8. Don't rush Barbarossa. Generally speaking, the only time Axis MPP production is greater than Allied MPP production is from the fall of France until Barbarossa.
9. When using the Axis Air Force, generally concentrate on destroying the enemy's fighters and HQs first, not the front line units. I often neglect this one myself.
10.Once Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad have been captured, destroy whatever unit is in London with the massed Luftwaffe and then drop a paratrooper. Game Over.

Once Spain is Axis and Egypt and the Middle East conquered, and the Ukraine occupied German MPPs will be 1200+ (provided industry tech has not been neglected).

It was the 4 US diplo hits you got that gave you a fighting chance in this game. But if you couldn't stop this Axis strategy with four Hits than think how much worse it would have been if you only got one or two. In other words I don't think Uber-diplomacy is the counter to this Axis strategy. As I understand it the only counter is to send the entire RN and British Army (including the BEF) to Egypt and attack Italy in Libya the moment it is in the War, while simultaneously attacking its fleets in port. Meanwhile fortify the El Alamein line. This of course means that London might be lost to Sealion. But London is of less importance than Cairo and the Middle East.



Taifun -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 9:39:32 AM)

Congratulations to both of you! I really thought that KorutZelva was to hold around Iraq for longer and was surprised that Moscow fell that quick.
From what I have experienced so far this game is Axis tilted. As you mentioned earlier the Axis player has a big advantage that is not historically accurate. Any powerful unrealistic Luftwaffe in North Africa can really hurt the Brits all the way to Saudi Arabia. Spain is another key country that if it joins the Axis is game over.
Thanks again for the entertainment generals!



KorutZelva -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 10:24:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Sorry, if I don`t get what you mean, english isn't my first language. Do you mean HB to be superior to you, so that uber was providing a better chance for you? And that HB's "lamento" was proving it to be right?

If so, and from what I´ve noticed so far, the only prove was the brit. weakness in NA following those heavy investments, and the am. appearance still too late to turn the tide, although you achieved more hits than expected.

Your 2. strat. could be far more successfull, if you`d use all available aircraft and navy to destroy Axis` deployment in NA.


It got me to a superior position which I latter squandered.

Some Axis player prefer attacking Russia in the spring in 1941, had he made that choice Egypt would have likely held. Even then, I'm not entirely sure Egypt defence was hopeless had it been in the hands of a more skilled player. For example, my little incursion in Lybia with the brits meant that my unit were out of position on the counter. I also gave him a free HQ target by leaving it exposed. However, the safer play was definitively to use the vast Brits resource to make a fortress in Iraq.

quote:

Send Manstein to Libya to join Rommel (well actually even before Rommel arrives)


I figured you had a second german HQ in there since your air was so far away... I guess he's to blame for the insane kill ratio. I might have under-estimated the urgency to get the HQ tech. [:)]

quote:

It was the 4 US diplo hits you got that gave you a fighting chance in this game. But if you couldn't stop this Axis strategy with four Hits than think how much worse it would have been if you only got one or two.


Never expected Uber Diplo to become the new cookie cutter. But getting two hits is still a win, as it also derails Axis tech research and Spain acquisition time table. The difference would be that an egypt defense would definitively be out of the question.



Zecke -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 11:50:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Sorry, if I don`t get what you mean, english isn't my first language. Do you mean HB to be superior to you, so that uber was providing a better chance for you? And that HB's "lamento" was proving it to be right?

If so, and from what I´ve noticed so far, the only prove was the brit. weakness in NA following those heavy investments, and the am. appearance still too late to turn the tide, although you achieved more hits than expected.

Your 2. strat. could be far more successfull, if you`d use all available aircraft and navy to destroy Axis` deployment in NA.


It got me to a superior position which I latter squandered.

Some Axis player prefer attacking Russia in the spring in 1941, had he made that choice Egypt would have likely held. Even then, I'm not entirely sure Egypt defence was hopeless had it been in the hands of a more skilled player. For example, my little incursion in Lybia with the brits meant that my unit were out of position on the counter. I also gave him a free HQ target by leaving it exposed. However, the safer play was definitively to use the vast Brits resource to make a fortress in Iraq.

quote:

Send Manstein to Libya to join Rommel (well actually even before Rommel arrives)


I figured you had a second german HQ in there since your air was so far away... I guess he's to blame for the insane kill ratio. I might have under-estimated the urgency to get the HQ tech. [:)]

quote:

It was the 4 US diplo hits you got that gave you a fighting chance in this game. But if you couldn't stop this Axis strategy with four Hits than think how much worse it would have been if you only got one or two.


Never expected Uber Diplo to become the new cookie cutter. But getting two hits is still a win, as it also derails Axis tech research and Spain acquisition time table. The difference would be that an egypt defense would definitively be out of the question.


oustanding¡[:)]



KorutZelva -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 12:08:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Taifun

Congratulations to both of you! I really thought that KorutZelva was to hold around Iraq for longer and was surprised that Moscow fell that quick.
From what I have experienced so far this game is Axis tilted. As you mentioned earlier the Axis player has a big advantage that is not historically accurate. Any powerful unrealistic Luftwaffe in North Africa can really hurt the Brits all the way to Saudi Arabia. Spain is another key country that if it joins the Axis is game over.
Thanks again for the entertainment generals!



Thanks! Glad people enjoyed! I do my AARs for the people, which is why I try to instill a little dash of showmanship in terms of strategy used. [:D]

After this game and the one vs Taxman I was thinking the Axis had the edge under this patch. I'm glad a player of your caliber echo my sentiment. I wasn't there at launch but I think at some point the allies were considered favored? I'm a bit worried with the impending U-boat change, which would benefit the axis even further. I hope Bill and Hubert will toss the allies a bone to compensate!



Giovanni705 -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 3:40:33 PM)

One question for you all masters.
How to make sure Spain joins the Axis?
Thanks a lot!



Sugar -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 3:41:22 PM)

quote:

As you mentioned earlier the Axis player has a big advantage that is not historically accurate.


I totally agree. There`s only one point where and when to stop the Axis, that`s in autumn 40 in Libya, like HB already suggested. The key city is Cairo, not Bagdad.



Harrybanana -> RE: HBK vs KZtonk man: Battle for the Intercontinental Championship (1/15/2018 3:45:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

Some Axis player prefer attacking Russia in the spring in 1941, had he made that choice Egypt would have likely held.



Not having played me before KZ you had no reason to believe that I would not attack Russia in the Spring of 41. But IMHO attacking Russia any sooner then you have to (ie when it's mobilization reaches about 80) is a big mistake. Sure Russia will be stronger the longer you wait, but Germany will be even stronger as prior to Barbarossa it will be out producing Russia by a wide margin. Also if it waits to attack Russia the Axis can in the meantime employ the Luftwaffe to gain other objectives, like Egypt and the Middle East or, if necessary, Algeria. Also as soon as you attack Russia US mobilization begins to increase. Not relevant in our game of course, where the US entered the War before Russia, but an important factor in most games.



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