No Fog of War Middle Ground? (Full Version)

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K 19 -> No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 12:17:29 AM)

I noticed that the Fog of War setting is either all or nothing. It would be nice to be able to sit through the combat animation battles and see accurate reports of aircraft kills, torpedo/bomb hits, and ships sunk without making all enemies on the map visible. To me, it seems pointless and a waste of time to watch battles and 'kills' in real time if they are 90% inaccurate.

I know it may be historically accurate to have inaccurate kill claims, torpedo/bomb hits, and ships sunk, but some of us players aren't super hardcore like many here and would like to see accurate combat reports without revealing the enemy's locations every turn.

Call it 'gamey', but 3 or 4 levels of Fog of War settings would be a very welcomed addition to this great game.



Lokasenna -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 1:22:18 AM)

With a very careful watch of the replay, you can get a much better idea of how many planes were actually shot down.

I wouldn't say that results are 90% inaccurate (a variance of 90%), except in extreme cases of ground battles (I've seen doubling/halving of actual casualties for sure, but it's also hard to tell exactly how much because of post-battle repairs that happen before you can check on the unit).

Take a hypothetical air combat - let's say you have 25x P-38's sweeping against an enemy CAP, and you don't watch the animation for the battle or don't tally the results as they happen. You see 6x of your P-38s as destroyed in the combat report vs. 4x Ki-44 Tojo destroyed. This right here tells you that your guys almost certainly (99% if not 100%) lost in terms of kill ratio, but the degree of the defeat could vary. Let's say you load the turn and your aircraft losses screen says you actually lost 9x P-38s in air to air. It's pretty reasonable to assume that the actual number of Tojos lost varies from somewhere between 3-4 and 6-7.

While you can't trust the numbers, you can always trust the general result for air combat - did I "win" or did I "lose."


For ships, listen for sinking sounds. If the ship has aircraft capability, check for planes destroyed on the ground in the intelligence screen - if there are any, they will be reported (although the number may be slightly incorrect). For example, if you hit a Kongo-class BB and see heavy fires, heavy damage... but you can't tell if the sinking sounds you heard were the Kongo or the xAK that your submarine hit earlier in the turn, check the aircraft destroyed screen. If you see any IJ float planes destroyed on the ground, and you did no airfield bombing that destroyed these float planes, you know the Kongo did sink.



Lokasenna -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 1:24:12 AM)

I'll also mention that, if you are playing against the AI, you can turn off Fog of War while you run the replay. After the replay, you can look at the ships sunk or aircraft losses screen to get a no-fog view of what happened. Then, turn Fog of War back on before you look around the map (I forget if this requires saving your game and exiting back to the main menu - it might).

This would simulate your desired "middle ground."



K 19 -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 1:40:28 AM)

Lokasenna, thanks for the replies. Your solutions may work to a certain extent, but it would still be nice to have the option to change the degree of Fog of War in the settings.

One thing that confuses me are the differences between animated combat results in real-time and the combat results screen afterward. For example, I watched the animated combat sequence as my bad-ass cap of 45 P-40s supposedly shot down around 20 IJN fighters and bombers. But the combat report afterward only showed 4 enemy shot down. So which is accurate? Neither?



Dili -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 4:39:24 AM)

Neither. But should be near 4 than 25.



Lokasenna -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 5:15:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: K 19

Lokasenna, thanks for the replies. Your solutions may work to a certain extent, but it would still be nice to have the option to change the degree of Fog of War in the settings.

One thing that confuses me are the differences between animated combat results in real-time and the combat results screen afterward. For example, I watched the animated combat sequence as my bad-ass cap of 45 P-40s supposedly shot down around 20 IJN fighters and bombers. But the combat report afterward only showed 4 enemy shot down. So which is accurate? Neither?


When planes "leave" the combat animation, it is not always because they got shot down. They will run out of ammo, need to leave, head for cloud cover, or otherwise exit the furball.

The combat report text is actually a pretty good picture of how a fight went, even if the numbers are not accurate.


As I mentioned, the ground combat casualty numbers can be much more inaccurate than air combat in terms of numbers lost.



K 19 -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 6:07:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Neither. But should be near 4 than 25.


Thanks for your answer, Dili.

I'm starting to think watching and waiting through animated combat sequences is just a waste of time if the resulting numbers are that far off.



K 19 -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 6:08:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: K 19

Lokasenna, thanks for the replies. Your solutions may work to a certain extent, but it would still be nice to have the option to change the degree of Fog of War in the settings.

One thing that confuses me are the differences between animated combat results in real-time and the combat results screen afterward. For example, I watched the animated combat sequence as my bad-ass cap of 45 P-40s supposedly shot down around 20 IJN fighters and bombers. But the combat report afterward only showed 4 enemy shot down. So which is accurate? Neither?


The combat report text is actually a pretty good picture of how a fight went, even if the numbers are not accurate.


As I mentioned, the ground combat casualty numbers can be much more inaccurate than air combat in terms of numbers lost.


Interesting. Thank you.



Dili -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 6:43:01 AM)

Notice that compared to real war you are in fog of war middle ground. You get to know when your submarines are hit. Not that they just vanish... that your aircrews really hit ships - the game fog is only the damage level -and not they clam 20 hits but there was none...that they claim to hit a battleship and it is really just a cruiser because the image that appear in game is always correct.
That sometimes your forces hit something but you don't know your success to exploit it, either because the hit was in distance, a long range lucky torpedo hit, a submarine that hit a battleship but was sunk and could not report the earlier success...



K 19 -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 7:06:47 AM)

Regarding what I posted earlier, is it realistic that my P-40 pilots over-claimed kills by a factor of 5? Seems a bit much.



Dili -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 7:25:16 AM)

It could happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_and_overclaiming_of_aerial_victories_during_World_War_II



K 19 -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 8:02:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

It could happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_and_overclaiming_of_aerial_victories_during_World_War_II


Good information. I haven't tested, but is the game AI over-claiming an average of 5x the kills every air battle, or is it randomly high or low?



Dili -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 8:32:43 AM)

I think it is random. But i didn't keep a close eye.



K 19 -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 10:08:33 AM)

I understand. Thanks again for all of your helpful information.



Alfred -> RE: No Fog of War Middle Ground? (12/31/2017 5:54:47 PM)

I never see a delta of 5x nor are reports 90% inaccurate.

Post screenshots of what you are interpreting.  It is extremely likely you are misreading the screens.

Additional FOW settings would achieve nothing worthwhile.  Variability is already built into the game engine with how detection works.  The current detection system would not be compatible with creating additional settings.

Alfred 



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