Routing and Leningrad (Full Version)

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Kantti -> Routing and Leningrad (1/1/2018 12:06:17 PM)

I might have come to situation in my servergame where Axis somehow have managed to cross Neva while I still have considerable forces inside Leningrad (also on south side of Neva). Oranienbaum is still open and in my hands although damaged to 20% (enough to stop me trafficing much people out by ferry). I am now wondering what will happen if I stuff my kessel so full that divisions have no chance but to rout. Do they rout out from the kessel or do they surrender? I presume that if I lose Oranienbaum they begin to surrender?

On other hand I have to concur that Leningrad is insanely hard to defend in this game. Naturally luck must have played the part but on game turn 8 Axis just launched their first offensive againt the backdoor, I had there 3 experienced inf divisions (about cv 3 each), 3 brigades in reserve (1 activated), 2.5 fort, Zhukov in command of defending army and plenty of supporting air. Using 3 panzer divisions (that take extra disruption from major river) and 3 inf divisions with 10+ pioneers Model dislodged my defense (2.08:1, that felt kinda bad). Don't know what I could have done otherwise to still keep the city.



Kantti -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/1/2018 6:34:14 PM)

I am also asking this as I am not quite certain how routing via ports works. Does it require shipping capacity? How much damage can port have or does it effect evacuation at all? What determines where units end up? Firstly I presume they go next to their HQ but what if the HQ is in the kessel where units rout out from?

I am asking these partly as I just saw defenders of Odessa routing out from Odessa via sea, but ending up 15 hexes NE next to their army HQ near Krivoi Rog.



tyronec -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/1/2018 6:45:58 PM)

Am not sure exactly what you are asking, but if units are isolated they surrender, otherwise they rout - and can rout any distance. Sometimes they rout inside a pocket, sometimes out - depends on where there is available to rout to.

Makes no difference if a unit is in a port or not, if they are not isolated they will not surrender.

To isolate Leningrad the ports on Lake Ladago have to be captured. It may be possible to take them out by bombing but it is hard work and takes more than one turn.



Nix77 -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/1/2018 7:27:15 PM)

I think Kantti means Osinovets?

If a unit is in a port, and thus in supply, and is forced to retreat or rout without any free hex to move to, where does it retreat or rout to, and does shipping capacity have any effect if the unit is able to move away through the port?



tyronec -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/1/2018 8:32:31 PM)

quote:

If a unit is in a port, and thus in supply, and is forced to retreat or rout without any free hex to move to, where does it retreat or rout to, and does shipping capacity have any effect if the unit is able to move away through the port?

Am pretty sure it routs to the usual parameters, so roughly nearest town East for Soviet, West for Axis. Shipping capacity is not relevant.
Sneaky Axis players leave a hex to retreat to (say next to Odessa) which will be isolated next turn to get the surrender.



Kantti -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/1/2018 8:58:22 PM)

Yeah, sorry I meant I had Osinovits still under my control. I am now wondering if every hex of the kessel is fully stacked, do units rout out from the pocket (no room inside) if I have port inside the port.



tyronec -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/2/2018 7:08:15 AM)

quote:

Yeah, sorry I meant I had Osinovits still under my control. I am now wondering if every hex of the kessel is fully stacked, do units rout out from the pocket (no room inside) if I have port inside the port.

If they are not isolated they will rout. There are no restrictions to routing over water or otherwise blocked hexes.
It is not really a pocket if there is a working port.



Kantti -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/2/2018 7:12:32 AM)

So in this kind of situation it might be benefical to make the upcoming pocket smaller so that units have no room to retreat (or rout inside the upcoming pocket)?

EDIT: and more questions. Is it possible to rout next to enemy (if the hex is friendly but in enemy zoc without friendly unit)?



tyronec -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/2/2018 12:09:31 PM)

quote:

EDIT: and more questions. Is it possible to rout next to enemy (if the hex is friendly but in enemy zoc without friendly unit)?

You cannot rout into an unoccupied enemy ZOC.
I can't remember ever seeing a unit rout into a friendly occupied enemy ZOC hex but am not 100% sure.



Dinglir -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/2/2018 12:42:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
You cannot rout into an unoccupied enemy ZOC.


You can actually.

This is one of the good Soviet tricks in the winter of 41/42. If denying the Germans any other hexes to withdraw to, you can force them to withdraw eastwards into an encirclement. The requirement is that it is Axis controlled.

I have also often seen it happen with Soviet units withdrawing. They prefer withdrawing adjacent to an attacked, rather than withdrawing westwards into a coming pocket.



Dinglir -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/2/2018 12:57:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kantti
So in this kind of situation it might be benefical to make the upcoming pocket smaller so that units have no room to retreat (or rout inside the upcoming pocket)?


If your ports on Lake Ladoga is operational, your units will rout out of the Leningrad area and land somewhere east of Lake Ladoga if there are no town or cities within the pocket to rout to.

I would imagine they would take some real casualties from withdraing that distance, but I have never tried this.

Just remember that if you stack your own units three high in every hex of the pocket, you have also denied yourself the opportunity to replace weak units on the line. Also, stacking three high means that a savvy German player would make it a point to take or destroy Osinovets, and then your units suddently have nowhere to rout and will start surrendering instead.

If I were you, I would consider evacuating what units you can over Lake Ladoga while holding on to Osinovets as long as possible (what level fortification does it have and what do the Germans have across the Neva?). Of course this also depends on the turn number. If you are at turn 16+ in a bitter end scenarion, I would consider holding on to Leningrad with everything available instead.



Kantti -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/2/2018 1:18:20 PM)

Thanks for input all. Problem is currently that I have far more units in Leningrad than originally intended and Neva crossing is already forced. Hasty attacks (held) destoryed enough shipping capacity that transferring division by ferry is no longer option. Now I am trying to get as many units to rout out as possible before inevitable fall of the city complex. Some units have already 10 wins gathered so I am trying to save them no matter what the cost.



Telemecus -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/2/2018 2:55:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kantti

Thanks for input all. Problem is currently that I have far more units in Leningrad than originally intended and Neva crossing is already forced. Hasty attacks (held) destoryed enough shipping capacity that transferring division by ferry is no longer option. Now I am trying to get as many units to rout out as possible before inevitable fall of the city complex. Some units have already 10 wins gathered so I am trying to save them no matter what the cost.


Look carefully at the transport costs of each unit in their details - they do vary and some may be less than the shipping you have available. Also shipping capacity does accumulate turn after turn - so eventually you will have enough to ship more out.

This all assumes of course that Osinovets is not so damaged it is beyond use. If it is too damaged to operate, or in enemy hands - and the Finn have prevented an overland route to any other port - then your units will be dead eventually and never rout. Before then units can rout out - and you can weaken them to try to make routs more likely in combat (reduce ToEs, make many attacks with them in your turn, move away air support and get SUs away from them and their HQs, give them worse leaders). Also put units not next to the enemy on reserve status - if they commit to a battle lost they may also rout. It is an all or nothing situation unfortunately.





Nix77 -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/3/2018 5:27:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
This all assumes of course that Osinovets is not so damaged it is beyond use.


Does anyone know when exactly ports get damaged beyond use?

I saw this formula in some really old post:

PortLevel*(100-damage)>100 (as long as this is true, port is functional)

That'd mean Osinovets needs 70% damage to get knocked out, I'm taking into account the 3% repair that gets done during Soviet turn.

PS. Ladoga shipping capacity goes down really fast if Osinovets is bombed for a few times, it goes so low that you can't even ship a full division out per turn.



Nix77 -> RE: Routing and Leningrad (1/3/2018 7:29:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
This all assumes of course that Osinovets is not so damaged it is beyond use.


Does anyone know when exactly ports get damaged beyond use?

I saw this formula in some really old post:

PortLevel*(100-damage)>100 (as long as this is true, port is functional)

That'd mean Osinovets needs 70% damage to get knocked out, I'm taking into account the 3% repair that gets done during Soviet turn.

PS. Ladoga shipping capacity goes down really fast if Osinovets is bombed for a few times, it goes so low that you can't even ship a full division out per turn.


I tested this out, and the formula seems to be correct at least with Osinovets. Port doesn't work if it has more than 66% damage (on the Soviet turn).



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