RE: Coastal Artillery Question (Full Version)

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Lobster -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 5:58:03 PM)

With .30 works better. With .21 it's a joke.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 8:30:30 PM)

There you go, it's that easy. Thanks Jack!



Lobster -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 8:33:22 PM)

I don't know how accurate it is. From some of the stuff I've read it's fairly difficult for either side to get a hit. More of a deterrent to keep troop ships away maybe? And when ships start lobbing large shells they tend to throw up masses of dust that make it hard to even see the target.



Zovs -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 11:51:01 PM)

So when will .30 be ready?

Just adding coastal arty to my WIE scenario and fine tuning the naval attrition divider.

Now if someone could answer my mud scalar question I’ll set that appropriately.



rmeckman -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/20/2019 5:13:17 PM)

I'm new to this forum but have a possible explanation for the frequent evaporation of coastal batteries when they fire on ships. I came across the problem while attempting to modify the Weserubung scenario to use the new naval rules. When ships come within range of a coastal fortress, the fortress guns fire on the ships using the naval combat procedure, just as one expects. However, the ships' counterbattery fire on the fortress is also resolved using the naval combat procedure rather than the land bombardment rules. Each piece of equipment in the fort is treated as a ship in the counterbattery combat resolution.

As an example, shown below are some lines from the TOAW log file after the German cruiser Königsberg comes within range of a Norwegian coastal fortress. The fortress has already fired, and the Königsberg has been allocated counterbattery shots on the fortress using the naval formula. One of those shots is targeted at a Norwegian infantry squad within the fortress, and here are the results in the log:


FleetCombat: Target Unit Leröy Fort.
FleetCombat: Target Equipment NO Landvern Squad.
FleetCombat: Chance shock hit rnd(1,75)*100>rnd(1,65)*100.
FleetCombat: Weather Modifiers Total = 0.700000 Source(13) = 0.330000, Target(11) = 0.660000.
FleetCombat: Chance guns hit range 5.000000.
FleetCombat: Chance guns hit .86(odds)*.70(weather).
FleetCombat: Chance guns hit 60>rnd(1,100).
FleetCombat: Damage 1 hit 42>rnd(1,2).
Combat : NO Landvern Squad destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
FleetCombat: Penetration hit rnd(1,42/2)>rnd(1,0).
FleetCombat: Penetration 2 hit 3 = rnd(1,4)*rnd(1,50)/21.
FleetCombat: Critical chance 1
Combat : NO Landvern Squad destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : NO Landvern Squad destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : NO Landvern Squad destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)


The first hit check is made assuming the squad is a ship with an agility of 65. The second hit check is resolved normally using range, weather, and the Königsberg's accuracy. Next, the 1% damage check is performed assuming the squad has a durability in the 20s. This 1% damage immediately "sinks" the squad. Penetration is computed assuming an armor rating of zero, which causes 3% more damage; that damage is assessed by eliminating three more squads. All other equipment in the fortress is treated the same way as this squad.

In essence, the ships' counterbattery fire treats the fortress equipment as a flotilla of easily sinkable ships. In most scenarios, the naval rules generate more than enough shots in one counterbattery firing round to "sink" all the equipment in the fortress and cause it to evaporate.



Shadrach -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 9:22:28 AM)

quote:

In essence, the ships' counterbattery fire treats the fortress equipment as a flotilla of easily sinkable ships. In most scenarios, the naval rules generate more than enough shots in one counterbattery firing round to "sink" all the equipment in the fortress and cause it to evaporate.


Now that's what I call proper detective work and fact-finding!



Lobster -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 9:45:11 AM)

So making any equipment a virtual ship is something that happens because the unit has a coastal artillery icon?



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 4:33:14 PM)

quote:

the naval rules generate more than enough shots in one counterbattery firing round to "sink" all the equipment in the fortress and cause it to evaporate.

I am not the naval guy, but isn't this why there is a Naval Attrition Divider [so that Shots Fired Per Round can be scaled to the Game Scale] ?



VHauser -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 5:37:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I am not the naval guy, but isn't this why there is a Naval Attrition Divider [so that Shots Fired Per Round can be scaled to the Game Scale] ?


From what I've determined, the NAD affects the vulnerability of naval units but not the number of shots fired.

I've tried lowering the NAD in Europa 1947, but this just results in naval units being massacred by air units and other naval units. Sure, coastal artillery will also join the massacre, but even the survival of minimal naval units means the destruction of the coastal artillery.

Alas, lowering the NAD doesn't solve the problem.



VHauser -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 5:55:10 PM)

Here is a possible work around.
Use the RR-artillery symbol, but only deploy in hexes that don't have rail lines (put a rail in the hex, then add the "coastal artillery", then erase the rail in the hex). This solves the 0-movement problem (meaning that such "coastal artillery" should not be able to retreat), but has its own share of side effects.

Indeed, the 0-movement problem is the biggest issue to deal with regarding any coastal artillery work around. In other words, permanently emplaced artillery must have 0 movement and not be able to retreat.



Zovs -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 6:11:39 PM)

For my War In Europe scenario some units I used a static icon for the first and the coastal for the 2nd icon. For the dedicated coastal I just used the default but I had to jack up the NAD due to the naval units getting creamed and sunk too easily.

Seems to work ok.

I had to do a bunch of tests to get to feel right.



76mm -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 6:18:55 PM)

There two different coastal artillery icons; does this problem arise with both of them?



VHauser -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 6:55:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

There two different coastal artillery icons; does this problem arise with both of them?


Yes, unfortunately.



VHauser -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 6:59:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

For my War In Europe scenario some units I used a static icon for the first and the coastal for the 2nd icon. For the dedicated coastal I just used the default but I had to jack up the NAD due to the naval units getting creamed and sunk too easily.

Seems to work ok.

I had to do a bunch of tests to get to feel right.


I just tested this and it did not work for me--the static/coastal artillery unit was instantly destroyed.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 7:30:27 PM)

quote:

I've tried lowering the NAD in Europa 1947, but this just results in naval units being massacred

Try testing it with a setting of 100, because going up REDUCES the number of shots and has nothing to do with vulnerability levels. Going down INCREASES number of shots. Its the same way with the non-naval AD.



VHauser -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 7:30:43 PM)

After further testing, the "RR artillery solution" for the coastal artillery problem does indeed work, but the cure is perhaps worse than the disease. You might want to mess around with it some, but I do not recommend this "solution" to the coastal artillery problem.



VHauser -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 7:33:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Try testing it with a setting of 100, because going up REDUCES the number of shots and has nothing to do with vulnerability levels. Going down INCREASES number of shots. Its the same way with the non-naval AD.


Europa 1947 has a default NAD of 100. I've tested it at 100 and I've tested it at 10. In both cases, the coastal artillery is instantly destroyed.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 7:49:54 PM)

Where can I find that scenario? I don't see it in Modern Misc and I'd rather not search thru all folders.



VHauser -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 8:01:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Where can I find that scenario? I don't see it in Modern Misc and I'd rather not search thru all folders.


It's in the Hypothetical folder.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 8:07:29 PM)

Not here ... heck with folders, I searched my computer and couldn't find it. So I guess it didn't ship with IV ? Ok then, just give me a standard scenario that shipped with IV that anyone is having this issue with so that I can get into it.

And maybe I'm wrong but it seems like we've been thru this before [:(] [and right here in this very thread!].



rhinobones -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 8:36:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VHauser

Here is a possible work around.
Use . . .


Maybe you can build a new costal gun that has the attributes of a tank and extremely high agility. Make it hard to hit and difficult to penetrate.

Or, try deploying a stack of costal units. Might take several combat rounds to destroy them all.

Regards, RhinoBones



VHauser -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 8:38:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Not here ... heck with folders, I searched my computer and couldn't find it. So I guess it didn't ship with IV ? Ok then, just give me a standard scenario that shipped with IV that anyone is having this issue with so that I can get into it.

And maybe I'm wrong but it seems like we've been thru this before [:(] [and right here in this very thread!].


No need. I've spent the past day-and-a-half messing with this and I'm pretty convinced that there is no solution to this problem without re-writing some of the game code. And even that might not be worth the effort because "fixing" this problem might break something else.

The scenario I'm working on has to deal with the entire European coastline (with emphasis on a reinforced Atlantic Wall), which means that broken coast artillery also breaks my scenario. But that's my problem. If I can't "solve" it with some sort of workaround, then I'll have to shelve this project. Oh well.

The good news is that most TOAW scenarios don't include coast artillery, so players still have lots of scenarios to choose from.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 9:11:25 PM)

But Vic, go to the WWII - West Front folder and open up a new game of Overlord 44. You can move the Allied ships all up and down the coast and experience a lot of shore fire and counterbattery, but nothing like is being described in this thread. So here is the thing, from my chair, there is no need to mess with this. It works fine. No one has been able to give me a stock scenario that displays this behaviour, and until that happens so that it can be reproduced in a controlled test, there is nothing for me to report as needing a fix.

quote:

I'm working on has to deal with the entire European coastline

I get that, I've done a few myself, and they work fine. Here is one example: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378627
Here is another: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4384926&mpage=1&key=

No they weren't in the release, but they were initially and were removed at the eleventh hour by my choice. I bring these up because they were designed and/or tested/adjusted with IV. I'll also add that during development the NAD Setting was identified as having a definite effect on scenarios, and because of that we tested and reset [where necessary] the NAD for all of the release scenarios.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 9:22:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

But Vic, go to the WWII - West Front folder and open up a new game of Overlord 44. You can move the Allied ships all up and down the coast and experience a lot of shore fire and counterbattery, but nothing like is being described in this thread. So here is the thing, from my chair, there is no need to mess with this. It works fine. No one has been able to give me a stock scenario that displays this behaviour, and until that happens so that it can be reproduced in a controlled test, there is nothing for me to report as needing a fix.

quote:

I'm working on has to deal with the entire European coastline

I get that, I've done a few myself, and they work fine. Here is one example: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378627
Here is another: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4384926&mpage=1&key=

No they weren't in the release, but they were initially and were removed at the eleventh hour by my choice. I bring these up because they were designed and/or tested/adjusted with IV. I'll also add that during development the NAD Setting was identified as having a definite effect on scenarios, and because of that we tested and reset [where necessary] the NAD for all of the release scenarios.

Steve, check to see if you're playing with a version later than 4.1.0.25 - that's the version where Ralph fixed this.



VHauser -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 9:47:22 PM)

I'm running version 4.1.0.23. Where do I get a later version?



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 10:04:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VHauser

I'm running version 4.1.0.23. Where do I get a later version?

You wait for the next update release.



VHauser -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/21/2019 10:12:28 PM)

Ah, then if I'm running the latest released version and my coastal artillery is broken, do you recommend I shelve my project until a later version is released that solves this problem?



rmeckman -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/22/2019 12:56:19 AM)

One TOAW IV stock scenario that has a evaporating coastal fort is Fall Weiss 1939. On turn 1 for the Germans, move the Schleswig-Holstein one hex to the northeast. The Laskowshiego coastal battery on the Hel Peninsula will fire at the ship. Although the ship will take some damage (largely due to the high number of shots stemming from a naval divider of 10), the fort usually evaporates. The naval combat rules will be used both for the fort's fire and the ship's counter fire. Here is one of the fortress MMGs being taken out in the log file:


FleetCombat: Target Unit bat.Laskowskiego.
FleetCombat: Target Equipment Medium MG.
FleetCombat: Chance shock hit rnd(1,59)*100>rnd(1,9)*80.
FleetCombat: Weather Modifiers Total = 0.910000 Source(11) = 1.000000, Target(11) = 0.660000.
FleetCombat: Chance guns hit range 4.990000.
FleetCombat: Chance guns hit .91(odds)*.91(weather).
FleetCombat: Chance guns hit 82>rnd(1,100).
FleetCombat: Damage 1 hit 380>rnd(1,2).
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
FleetCombat: Penetration hit rnd(1,380/2)>rnd(1,0).
FleetCombat: Penetration 2 hit 15 = rnd(1,38)*rnd(1,50)/21.
FleetCombat: Critical chance 15
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)
Combat : Medium MG destroyed. (specificAttrit=1)


In this case, the penetration caused 15% additional damage, which is assessed by taking out 15 more MMG teams. So this one shot took out 1+15=16 of the 24 MMGs in the fortress.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/22/2019 1:58:59 AM)

quote:

check to see if you're playing with a version later than 4.1.0.25 - that's the version where Ralph fixed this.

Yeah, that's what I said posts ago - that it may be fixed and if I'm given a scenario to test then I will find out for sure, but they never gave me one, so ...

... but I think that means that any scenarios where the NAD was raised for IV should now be revisited. [I've noticed that the NAD setting of 100 has resulted in less naval hits in the beta versions].



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (8/22/2019 2:03:52 AM)

quote:

One TOAW IV stock scenario that has a evaporating coastal fort is Fall Weiss

Thanks for looking into this. That would be my fault because I think I mistook this one for Grun and skipped it as being land locked. [:(]



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