Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (Full Version)

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Leadwieght -> Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/9/2018 12:05:55 PM)

Playing PBEM as Axis vs. Harrybanana. Doing badly in August 1942 (stupidly tried Sealion when I shouldn't have).
The British and Americans landed in Normandy, but I had hopes of chasing them out.
So I DOWed Vichy Algeria and took Algiers via amphib.
According to the printed Manual, DE603 (Enticing Franco) should NOT have fired yet, because there were definitely Allied troops in France.
BUT, at the end of the turn after the one in which I took Algiers, I was offered the chance to invite Franco to join.
Of course I said yes, but I feel I may have benefited unfairly from a bug.
Is this WAD, or have the conditions for the DE been changed and the Manual is out of date?
If they have been changed, I think the ones in the Manual are more historically accurate. Franco was a wily survivor with his eye on the main chance.
If the Allies had landed in France and looked to have a credible chance to beat the Germans, Franco would not have joined the Axis, IMO.

Anyone else seen this?



BillRunacre -> RE: Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/9/2018 4:31:27 PM)

Hi Leadwieght

I'm afraid that it can happen because of a misunderstanding on my part of how something worked.

The Manual is the intention, but it's not possible without a lot of work to implement it, so what's happened could be said to be working as scripted, if not as fully desired.

Obviously this helps you, although it'll be a while before you'll be able to benefit fully from the cost of enticing Franco to enter the war, so hopefully your Allied opponent is a cunning fox who will be able to give you a good run for your money!

Bill



Taxman66 -> RE: Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/9/2018 4:36:44 PM)

All the more reason for the Wallies to take out Vichy Algeria themselves.



crispy131313 -> RE: Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/9/2018 5:30:03 PM)

If I could make a suggestion I would add this line to DE 603.

; Set variable conditions:
; USA politically aligned with Allies (not fully active)and not surrendered
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 115 [2] [1] [0]

Franco certainly wouldn't have joined the Axis once USA declared war on Germany IMO, that ship had already sailed by that point and it would remove the possibility of this later in the game as well when it would make even less sense.



Harrybanana -> RE: Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/9/2018 6:10:17 PM)

I did not even know that this DE was not supposed to trigger if there were Allied units in France. In our game I don't think this will be a game changer so I have no problem continuing the game with Spain as Axis. Just adds to the challenge.



Harrybanana -> RE: Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/9/2018 6:16:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

If I could make a suggestion I would add this line to DE 603.

; Set variable conditions:
; USA politically aligned with Allies (not fully active)and not surrendered
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 115 [2] [1] [0]

Franco certainly wouldn't have joined the Axis once USA declared war on Germany IMO, that ship had already sailed by that point and it would remove the possibility of this later in the game as well when it would make even less sense.



You are probably historically right, but as I am playing an AAR now with KZ where Spain joined after US War entry I'm glad this isn't the Rule yet.

My concern is that if this Rule is implemented it will make it even more advantageous for the Allied Player to engage in Uber-Diplomacy on the US. Once the Allied Player starts putting diplomacy chits into the US the Axis has to counter. This makes it unlikely that the Axis will be able to get Spain onto its side prior to US War Entry. For myself anything that discourages Uber-Diplomacy is a good thing and anything that encourages it is bad thing.



crispy131313 -> RE: Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/9/2018 6:59:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

If I could make a suggestion I would add this line to DE 603.

; Set variable conditions:
; USA politically aligned with Allies (not fully active)and not surrendered
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 115 [2] [1] [0]

Franco certainly wouldn't have joined the Axis once USA declared war on Germany IMO, that ship had already sailed by that point and it would remove the possibility of this later in the game as well when it would make even less sense.



You are probably historically right, but as I am playing an AAR now with KZ where Spain joined after US War entry I'm glad this isn't the Rule yet.

My concern is that if this Rule is implemented it will make it even more advantageous for the Allied Player to engage in Uber-Diplomacy on the US. Once the Allied Player starts putting diplomacy chits into the US the Axis has to counter. This makes it unlikely that the Axis will be able to get Spain onto its side prior to US War Entry. For myself anything that discourages Uber-Diplomacy is a good thing and anything that encourages it is bad thing.


Interesting take on this and I would possibly agree.

With regard to the US Uber-Diplomacy strategy I remember when I had released Fall Weiss II for SC2 I had provided events that essentially shielded against this strategy. The first was a isolationist event in October 1940 (Roosevelt promised not to send American boys into any foreign wars) that reset American mobilization back to 0, and would follow Roosevelt being re-elected. Then next event to end December 1940 Roosevelt's proclamation that the United States must be the "Arsenal of Democracy" would then trigger shortly after Lend Lease to the UK and an increase in US mobilization (and the beginning of the US's realization that they would be part of this war eventually).

What would happen is any unhistorical gains would be wiped in the later parts of 1940 (though US would have benefited from additional MPP to that point) and then mobilization restored to something of a more historical level on pace with war entry to end 1941.

I'm not sure if that would fit in this game or not, but I like to discuss such variants anyways.



Taxman66 -> RE: Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/9/2018 8:17:39 PM)

Just add an additional date condition if you want.
I could see Spain joining the Germans even if the US was in the war, if Germany has emasculated the UK, and still on the offensive in the USSR.



Leadwieght -> RE: Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/10/2018 4:17:13 AM)

Rather than a date condition, which seems arbitrary to me, maybe the condition could be "no Allied units within two/three hexes of Paris."

That would cover most eventualities and would not be likely to provoke any gamey moves by an Allied player.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/10/2018 12:22:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leadwieght

Rather than a date condition, which seems arbitrary to me, maybe the condition could be "no Allied units within two/three hexes of Paris."

That would cover most eventualities and would not be likely to provoke any gamey moves by an Allied player.


Sounds quite sensible



Leadwieght -> RE: Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/13/2018 2:23:29 PM)

Thanks, OG. Enjoying our game by the way! You may take Cairo, but I will never yield Moscow![:D]

Just to be clear, I think the "preventative conditions" for the DE 603 should be as they are now with respect to North Africa (i.e. Axis holds Algiers and Casablanca and no Allied units within 5 hexes of Oran or Casablanca) I'm just proposing that the "no Allied troops within France" be re-written as "No Allied troops within two (or possibly three) hexes of Paris."

Question for Bill: Does the presence of Allied naval units count as "units within fives hexes of Oran or Casablanca" or is it strictly land units? I hope it's the latter.




OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/14/2018 1:44:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leadwieght

Thanks, OG. Enjoying our game by the way! You may take Cairo, but I will never yield Moscow![:D]



I'm enjoying our game too and am learning a lot, sorry I'm very slow... Don't think there is much danger of Moscow falling to me, Cairo and Alexandria perhaps...

quote:


Just to be clear, I think the "preventative conditions" for the DE 603 should be as they are now with respect to North Africa (i.e. Axis holds Algiers and Casablanca and no Allied units within 5 hexes of Oran or Casablanca) I'm just proposing that the "no Allied troops within France" be re-written as "No Allied troops within two (or possibly three) hexes of Paris."



Sounds sensible


quote:


Question for Bill: Does the presence of Allied naval units count as "units within fives hexes of Oran or Casablanca" or is it strictly land units? I hope it's the latter.


I hope so too, would be a bit gamey otherwise...



BillRunacre -> RE: Spain enters the war despite Allied troops in France? (1/15/2018 2:12:08 PM)

Only land units count there. [:)]



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