Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (Full Version)

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Searry -> Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/16/2018 5:54:59 PM)

The Soviets always seem to kill me with artillery while I melt their tanks. How do I counter this?



CapnDarwin -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/16/2018 6:17:02 PM)

Make sure to kill enemy recon so they don't report your position. Hide positions with smoke if possible. on or just in front of your forces. Shift positions periodically, but be aware of delays to get moving. Think ahead on when to move. Don't stack your forces. Keep them spread out to avoid a single artillery strike hitting multiple units.



Searry -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/16/2018 7:21:18 PM)

Good advice. Bradleys seem to be worthless in this game so I wish I could separate them from the infantry to hide them in the woods to try and get some missile kills from afar.



HeinzBaby -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/17/2018 8:17:20 AM)

I'll go out on a limb as say that something is not right with AI artillery, either NATO or Soivet, in the last patch

observed findings:
1. unspotted Units, especially in heavy woods or Urban terrain with Hold or Screen commands get destroyed repeatedly,
loosing several squads or vehicles with each AI Arty strike.

2. when I let loose an Arty barrage I get hardly a hit, perhaps 1 or 2 kills even with targets in open ground.

3. I don't bother using ICM's - utter waste, better to use 3 salvos of HE.

4. when a Unit (unspotted) goes into resupply from Hold or Screen it will get an artillery barrage on it,
usually wiping it out. Morale of the story - don't resupply, let AI do it for you, thou the time frame has slipped between engagements.

5. when you hit an on map Arty Unit with indirect fire, after the fire attack it immediatetly moves (hasty),
when I try to move after an Artillery strike, it takes years even thou I'm inside the command cycle loop of the opposition and then I get clobbered again..
rant over.
I love this Sim, I know all the tips, don't stack, shoot & scoot, etc.
...trouble is I can't prove a thing other than what I see played out in front of me.



Searry -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/17/2018 11:44:28 AM)

Yeah I thought it was weird how I was getting pounded by artillery in concealed positions.



Searry -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/17/2018 11:46:46 AM)

The AI seems to know too much info even though the fog of war is on. Any observations like this from others as well?



CapnDarwin -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/17/2018 12:34:53 PM)

I am not sure what you are seeing with Arty. We haven't touched that code in a couple updates. I will take a look at the code and see if I notice anything odd. As for the AI, it does not cheat and get to know where you are. It has to spot you in some fashion. In some cases enemy recon may see you and you don't see them. There is also a difference in the accuracy of spotted versus unspotted fires. Even unspotted, if you happen to be in a targeted hex by a high number of tubes 152mm, life will be rough.

I guess that the good news is we are completely recoding all aspects of the artillery model for a more detailed and realistic approach. [8D]



Zakalwe101 -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/17/2018 9:40:22 PM)

Hi

I don't think that the ARTY model is broken in any way, it seems to perform pretty much as it has always has (see my post "NOT FEARING SOVIET ARTY") .

If any thing there are however some niggles that perhaps need attention , e.g AI ARTY displacements being significantly faster than one ordered by the player.

I am somewhat surprised by SEARY's comment "The Soviets always seem to kill me with artillery while I melt their tanks." I've just played one of the REFORGED SCENARIO'S BREAD AND BUTTER.

TANK KILLS BY US TANK BATTALION (TF 1-68) = 1, NON TANK KILLS = 187
TANK KILLS BY US ARTILLERY = 33 , NON TANK KILLS = 216

Of the the 20 TANKS lost by the US , 12 were as a result of fire from the Soviet T80U Battalion.
Engagement ranges were 3000m or so, I found that the deployed US tanks chose to fire at targets past the T80U's, which were in the 3000m range.

The biggest killer was the MLRS battery , which I used exclusively to fire saturation bombardments, which inflicted 18 Tank and 92 non tank kills.

Had I not been able to make the decisions as to where my Artillery fired then I would have suffered the same defeat that I suffered in the the a few good tanks scenario, where my us tanks only shot at the T80'S when there was none else to shoot at.

I have found that Arty is the Battle winner and feel seriously handicapped if I don't have any to conceal my troops with smoke, separate the soviet recon forces from their main force by laying a minefield at a crucial choke point , and wearing down their tanks units readiness, or eliminating air defense.

I never bother firing at enemy HQ's , they are too big to eliminate easily, and thier loss doesn't seem to effect Soviet plans significantly enough , their HQ's wont kill my troops but thier tanks sure as hell will.

AI use of Arty i have found is somewhat patchy, I'v had some big losses , but occasionally I have thought that they don't do enough preparatory bombardment, the scenarios are generally 8 hours or so but are often over in two or three hours, cos the Soviets go at it hammer and tongs from the word go, if the A1 hung back a bit with the main force , let their RECON do their stuff and then pound away with the artillery, I'D really struggle.

As an aside , how does a unit know if it has been spotted ? I can see you, but how do i know you have seen me until 152mm shells start landing on me ?

Nothing wrong with the Arty model as far as I can see.





CapnDarwin -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/17/2018 11:29:11 PM)

Yea, the spotted icon is going to get replaced with a fired-on icon to fix that issue in Southern. The thought was getting lased or shot at was a good indicator of being spotted.



Searry -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/18/2018 10:20:21 AM)

Okay... Playing as the Soviets, I noticed that their artillery is just simply better than their NATO counterparts. Is it because they are more numerous?



TarkError -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/20/2018 12:35:11 AM)

Which scenarios are you playing in particular?



Searry -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/20/2018 2:09:23 PM)

The Soviet campaign.



TarkError -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/20/2018 4:16:02 PM)

Interesting observation on the numbers (haven't played the Soviet campaign, only the British Black Rats ones)...the Soviets would've concentrated something like 110 to 130 howitzers per kilometer of front if a field army chose to make a penetration on a defending U.S. division



Ichili -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/22/2018 3:39:54 AM)

Having played recently the soviet campaign to a decisive success, I can say, from my point of view, artillery is the best soviet weapon. I never use the standard Russian attack tactics; initially I send a few units instead -one of tanks up front, another of infantry behind- as a recon force to attract defensive fire. Once I have the nato units located, the next turn I hammer them with my artillery. A few turns of this same game and I am ready for a mass attack on the - by then- already degraded defensive units. This tactic works fine when fighting the Germans. The last scenario, against the Americans, requires a lot more patience because artillery is less effective against them but the final result is the same.
Most, if not all, soviet tank and infantry units are worthless compared to their nato counterparts. Mass attacks across the open and against well positioned nato units - textbook attacks as described in Red Storm Rising- are wasteful and suicidal. Ideally, once I have destroyed with artillery most Bradleys and helicopters, I use the terrain to help my approach and attack those pesky Leopard and Abrams with all I have and at pointblank range.



TarkError -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/22/2018 4:36:20 AM)

Given that it's in the Soviet commander's best interest to deny NATO's long-range AT advantage, I'd say you're following Soviet tactics all right! From the Soviet perspective, they expected to pay in blood in reconaissance to know their enemy's tactical dispositions, in order to suppress them with their artillery and direct-fire weapons. Anyone who has access to the Journal of Slavic Military Studies might find the article "The correlation of forces and success in overcoming anti‐tank defenses" by Fritz Stoecki useful.



Jo van der Pluym -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/22/2018 7:57:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeinzBaby

4. when a Unit (unspotted) goes into resupply from Hold or Screen it will get an artillery barrage on it,
usually wiping it out. Morale of the story - don't resupply, let AI do it for you, thou the time frame has slipped between engagements.



I can understand this, and is for me releastic. Namely if a unit has order emergency resupply.

1. Then there is more radio traffic that can be intercepted.

2. Supply vehicles can be spotted drive to or from to a unspotted unit.



Ichili -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/22/2018 10:47:02 PM)

quote:

From the Soviet perspective, they expected to pay in blood in reconaissance to know their enemy's tactical dispositions, in order to suppress them with their artillery and direct-fire weapons


I am glad to hear that. I thought my approach to the problem was too "unorthodox", compared to those images of Russian tank / infantry attacks with massive numbers and total disregard for their casualties.
I would love to read the article you mentioned and similar info about the subject.



MaxDamage -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/24/2018 1:34:59 PM)

I think that the most effective arty in the game are 2s7 Malkas.

They have an extremely large caliber at 203mm and an extremely low cost.



TarkError -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/25/2018 9:07:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ichili

quote:

From the Soviet perspective, they expected to pay in blood in reconaissance to know their enemy's tactical dispositions, in order to suppress them with their artillery and direct-fire weapons


I am glad to hear that. I thought my approach to the problem was too "unorthodox", compared to those images of Russian tank / infantry attacks with massive numbers and total disregard for their casualties.
I would love to read the article you mentioned and similar info about the subject.


While we like to think of the typical echeloned Soviet attack with tanks and BMPs coming on-line to form a rich "target array" for AT weapons, I'd say its application would be more situation dependent.

Some factors in play for tactical success include time, speed, the amount of fire support, and the situation at higher formation level. From the viewpoint at army or army group level, the echeloned attack makes sense if it can achieve a rapid penetration of the NATO tactical defensive zone, so that bloody process can be converted into rear-area exploitation and pursuit.

We know that the Soviets preferred to unequally allocate support assets. It's a principle that they adapted from Epaminondas of Thebes, where his unbalanced formation biased towards the left crushed the Spartans at the Battle of Leuctra. That means if it was essential for a motorized rifle or tank regiment to succeed in the attack speedily, he's going to be given the fire support necessary to fully suppress enemy AT weapons to make the attack easier. One aspect is that proper reconnaissance is important for artillery target acquisition.

Though, if there isn't the support needed for tactical success, then the player would have to take the time to maneuver around the enemy's killzones and destroy their formations in conditions favorable to the attacker. As we're playing a grand-tactical wargame, we're mostly responsible for tactical success...

I have some documents I'd love to post as supporting props, but that will wait until I pass the threshold for link posting permissions.



Ichili -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/28/2018 1:17:42 AM)

I just finished playing "A Test of Wills" as a Russian against the AI. Tactical success. Tough scenario.
Well at the beginning, one of my Recon units was able to get a good view, before getting destroyed, of the enemy positions. (I guess the solution to my Recon would be an active counter Recon) Anyway, the information was gold, and I was able to cause a lot of damage using my artillery, turn after turn, against known or alternate enemy positions.
The way I play is slow, methodical. I only attack where I am convinced the enemy has been degraded, but almost always a few Nato units with ATGM can survive and destroy a whole Tank Company in a matter of minutes.
The comment made by MaxDamage inspired me to use my 203mm artillery as counter batteries, and that worked well. But I guess against a Human opponent, this scenario would be almost impossible to win.



MaxDamage -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/28/2018 7:20:13 PM)

Well of course its impossible if you have a minefield sitting in your respawn point!



MaxDamage -> RE: Good cover but crazy Soviet arty kills??? (1/30/2018 3:30:15 PM)

My current test of wills deathnote :D Feels bad for the other guy. I take his units and put a bolded red cross on top of them :D Soviet arti is the god of war in this scenario.

But i did roll my columns into the minefields so its fair :D


[img]https://i.imgur.com/ohxSqY8.jpg[/img]



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