Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (Full Version)

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jediael -> Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (1/17/2018 9:56:36 AM)

Being a new player, it's quite hard for me to tell how well I am doing as axis in the early game (i.e. the first 10 turns, say).

Could the more experienced players help me out with some benchmarks?

In what turn are key cities usually taken?
What are good casualty rates to inflict on the soviet player by turn 7?

Also, assuming the soviet player makes a stand at a certain spot, should one try and bust through with arm/mot only, or is it usually prudent to wait for the infantry to arrive first?

I assume that latter. Does that mean that I should try and optimize my infantry for maximum speed?

Finally, I find it very annoying to deal with russian units in the huge swamp area in the center. Should I just bypass them or try and weed them out? It bogs down a lot of units.

Thanks for your help.




SparkleyTits -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (1/17/2018 10:21:08 AM)

Panzers are good at ground grabbing as it will switch the ZOC to your own next turn and then your infantry can move up 15 hexes the following turn instead of 5-7 hexes (In AGS this is kind of vital as there is tonne of ground)

Infantry are good at cracking defences for panzers to exploit but often panzers needs to either crack a defence themselves before it becomes too entrenched or go around it to dislodge/stretch a defence as if you leave it to them and keep your panzers back ready to exploit then the Soviets can just move back a 2-5 a turn to ensure some safety

You infantry are great at cleaning up stubborn defences, pockets while your panzers grab the forward objectives, industry and ground

Speed is key early on you want to try and take as much ground as possible early on and grab any pockets your opponenets leaves you as at turn 10 reinforcements start to pour in and you do not what him to be full of troops and in control by that time

In dense hexes like swamps, urban, rough and heavy woods etc panzers fight with debuffs and infantry fight with buffs so always try to use infatry in those hexes it is often best for panzers to leave them well alone unless absolutely neccesary



Nix77 -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (1/17/2018 11:45:40 AM)

Some guidelines, starting from north:

T1 AGN: Get Riga, cross Daugava with force.
T1 AGC: Approach Minsk, generally head as much east as possible, concentrate on encirclement that holds
T1 AGS: Take Rovno and Tarnopol, concentrate on closing as big Lvov pocket as you can (or make an "open pocket" with deep penetration)

T2 AGN: Cross Velikaya, run infantry asap toward Leningrad
T2 AGC: Thrust east, Mogilev is possible to take on this turn
T2 AGS: Thrust east, try to pocket units at Zhitomir or Vinnitsa

T3-5 AGN: Push aggressively toward Luga river so the Soviet can't prepare, take Pskov if possible
T3-5 AGC: Fight at either land bridge, north of Vitebsk or attempt Dnepr crossing. Or a combination of these :)
T3-5 AGS: Head southeast, aim to threaten Dnepr at full length asap. Kiev should probably be only a sideshow

T6-9 AGN: Approach Leningrad, preferably with Model & I+II Corps doing the Neva crossing. Threaten Ilmen south side to keep Soviet forces tied to Valdai
T6-9 AGC: Pick the weakest spots and thrust the panzers through. Smolensk should be taken by now.
T6-9 AGS: Find a weak spot at Dnepr, cross and force a retreat. Dnepropetrovsk should be threatened as early as possible, or make a thrust toward Kharkov

T10 AGN: You should probably be at Neva river at this point. AGN panzers can do whatever they want after crossing: pockets in north, or head toward Moscow
T10 AGC: Aim to get close to Moscow, you should be threatening Vyazma, Rzhev or Bryansk.
T10 AGS: D-Z cities should be taken by now if you want to take a shot on Rostov. Threaten Kharkov to keep Soviet units tied in the open. Make a deep thrust toward Stalino when supply allows


Bypass Pripyat swamp completely, use a division or two to screen it. Aim to "shut it down" asap, encircling the swamp from Mogilev and Kiev.

In other places, avoid bad terrain and plan your advances accordingly. Try to exploit clear terrain and landbridges between rivers.

These are of course completely my personal views. Keep your forces concentrated and have focused objectives. In my opinion, you don't need to "create a front" as the Germans in '41. Just push toward east like a steamroller and you'll force the Soviet player to retreat. Remember to keep your flanks protected or you'll run out of steam fast :)




ledo -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (1/17/2018 9:04:51 PM)

The current player I'm playing against did a forward defence in the south and seemed to have flooded all his reinforcements to this area. This has been effective in slowing me down but been fairly devastating for his troops. I've destroyed 250 units with at least another 50 in pockets next turn, casualties are at about 2.3 million for him on turn 10 and I'm likely to be able to create a few more big pockets in the next 7 turns. His line is so thin in the centre I've been able to create a pocket of 11 divisions with infantry alone last turn and expect to destroy 350-400 units before winter in total. I've currently destroyed almost 40 armour divisions and his AFV numbers are at about 5.5k. I've also encircled Leningrad which only has a few divisions defending it. However, on the downside I won't be able to crack the Dnepr until about turn 12, and I'm only now busting through the defended around Smolensk. There are almost no units in the northwest front with the entire front encircled. I'm just wondering if I've made a blunder, I feel like his losses have been bad but is my land grab even worse?

Edit: oh and my factory caps are pretty low, 6 HI 13 ARM and I've trapped the KV-1 factory at Leningrad. I've also captured 40k trucks at this point, and forces him to supply about 50 divisions on stretched lines for about 5 turns by temporarily capping Chernigov and surrounding Kiev. Oh and there are no prepared defenses behind the Dnepr or anywhere else (Leningrad only had three ready divisions protecting it), it's a very forward single line defense.



Nix77 -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (1/18/2018 6:21:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ledo

The current player I'm playing against did a forward defence in the south and seemed to have flooded all his reinforcements to this area. This has been effective in slowing me down but been fairly devastating for his troops. I've destroyed 250 units with at least another 50 in pockets next turn, casualties are at about 2.3 million for him on turn 10 and I'm likely to be able to create a few more big pockets in the next 7 turns. His line is so thin in the centre I've been able to create a pocket of 11 divisions with infantry alone last turn and expect to destroy 350-400 units before winter in total. I've currently destroyed almost 40 armour divisions and his AFV numbers are at about 5.5k. I've also encircled Leningrad which only has a few divisions defending it. However, on the downside I won't be able to crack the Dnepr until about turn 12, and I'm only now busting through the defended around Smolensk. There are almost no units in the northwest front with the entire front encircled. I'm just wondering if I've made a blunder, I feel like his losses have been bad but is my land grab even worse?

Edit: oh and my factory caps are pretty low, 6 HI 13 ARM and I've trapped the KV-1 factory at Leningrad. I've also captured 40k trucks at this point, and forces him to supply about 50 divisions on stretched lines for about 5 turns by temporarily capping Chernigov and surrounding Kiev. Oh and there are no prepared defenses behind the Dnepr or anywhere else (Leningrad only had three ready divisions protecting it), it's a very forward single line defense.


If you've encircled the NW Front, you could try a northern approach to Moscow? The terrain is quite bad but if it's empty...

If the Center is thin, you can turn AGC panzers towards south and threaten the forces at Dnepr from there.

In the south, maybe just aim for a single breakthrough and just cross Dnepr before the opponent can fall back on the eastern shore? You really should be able to beat any kind of Soviet single line if you just concentrate your forces enough.


Don't make a front like this:
GSS =>
GSS =>
GSS =>
GSS =>
GSS =>
GSS =>

Do it like this:
GSS
xSS
xSS
GGGSS ===>>>
GGGSS ===>>>
xSS
xSS
GSS


G = German unit, S = Soviet unit, x = empty hex.


PS. Pictures from the front would make it easier to give advice :)



ledo -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (1/18/2018 7:29:29 AM)

Yeah sorry I was at work when I saw this post. I can send over pictures when I get home, but thanks for the advice.



richter53 -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (1/18/2018 11:53:10 AM)

My personal objectives are Leningrad and Kiev by the end of 41' Moscow 42; and Stalingrad 43. Infantry is the anvil and armor is the hammer. I prefer using my infantry to make breakthroughs followed by armor to envelope. I've found that a smart Russian player can impede German center momentum by leaving just a few units in swamp to harass German supply and flanks. I like using Hungarian and Czech units for this job. I think you should know that i've been playing the game for at least three years and I still haven't taken any of the big three russian cities in that time. I've gotten close. In fact, in a current game, I'm in position to hopefully liberate Leningrad before the mud.



thedoctorking -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (1/18/2018 5:51:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: richter53

My personal objectives are Leningrad and Kiev by the end of 41' Moscow 42; and Stalingrad 43.


So weird to see people talking about major German offensives in 1943. I see this in AAR's too; I think Tyronec and Grognard are fighting in the Caucasus in 1943.

Historically, the Germans did try one abortive offensive in summer 1943 - the Kursk battle - which ended up with a little salient carved into the Soviet defenses and then was followed by a crushing counter-offensive. Is the game unbalanced in favor of the Germans in 1942? Might this be caused by the end of automatic rebuilding of destroyed USSR units after October, 1941, while destroyed German units are rebuilt throughout the game? Might want to think about balance issues going forward.

I have yet to get to 1942 in a game against a human opponent, so I can't speak from experience. But everybody I've talked to says that the 1942 German offensive is just crushingly effective. Russian players are talking about holding the Caucasus, the Volga cities, the far north, not containing and wiping out whole German armies as was the case historically.



tomeck48 -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (1/18/2018 6:07:38 PM)

From my limited experience and from things I've read, my theory would be that '42 is great for the Germans because no German player is daft enough to keep pushing his armies out of supply into December. Taking the last 2 weeks of the summer of '41 to dig in and then resting up during the mud turns means that the Soviet winter offensive is much less effective, especially if the Soviet didn't play with +1 attack. So the German is much stronger in '42 than was the case historically.



Crackaces -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (1/21/2018 4:09:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking


quote:

ORIGINAL: richter53

My personal objectives are Leningrad and Kiev by the end of 41' Moscow 42; and Stalingrad 43.


So weird to see people talking about major German offensives in 1943. I see this in AAR's too; I think Tyronec and Grognard are fighting in the Caucasus in 1943.

Historically, the Germans did try one abortive offensive in summer 1943 - the Kursk battle - which ended up with a little salient carved into the Soviet defenses and then was followed by a crushing counter-offensive. Is the game unbalanced in favor of the Germans in 1942? Might this be caused by the end of automatic rebuilding of destroyed USSR units after October, 1941, while destroyed German units are rebuilt throughout the game? Might want to think about balance issues going forward.

I have yet to get to 1942 in a game against a human opponent, so I can't speak from experience. But everybody I've talked to says that the 1942 German offensive is just crushingly effective. Russian players are talking about holding the Caucasus, the Volga cities, the far north, not containing and wiping out whole German armies as was the case historically.


One thing .. this game is not an historical simulation so comparing ones performance to history might not be as valid then say compare similar games in similar version? (Say Sudden death full blizzard version 1.10 ..)
The 2x3 game will get to 1942 ...You will see what we can do at least in 1942 [:'(]



lastkozak -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (1/21/2018 5:17:40 PM)

The game allows players to avoid the same mistakes that the Germans and Soviets did, because it is approached knowing it will be a multi-year war. Thus since one has hindsight, and anybody going into this game is not thinking "once we capture Moscow, the USSR will collapse and sue for peace".

If one plays the 1941 scenario, one gets a better feel of how both sides perceived the war in 1941. That scenario leaves one knowing, they can only win if they approach the 1941 offensive with the same determination the Germans and Soviets did. Only the Soviets saw it as a war that would be fought over years, but that said, the soviets were very determined to not allow Moscow or Leningrad to fall. I bet if the KV-1 factories in Leningrad were not allowed to be moved, the Soviet player would throw everything into its defense, and sacrifice other territory to ensure that those tanks are available.

Since in a Campaign game everybody is thinking of a multi-year war, the Germans do not risk losing their tanks. The Soviets move their factories, and plan for a winter counter-offensive, but the Germans are better prepared. That said, no German players is going to risk their Panzers and an entire army holding Stalingrad, nor are they going to rely on their allies to defend their flanks in such a situation.

Thus the Germans are in a better position every spring, and the Soviets are also in a better position.

I do not know what the Sudden Death campaign is like, but another campaign where the Germans are enticed to early victory by taking risks may be a good idea, thus forcing the Soviet player to fight harder in the summer of 1941, to prevent an Axis Victory.

As I see it, if the Soviets win by April/May 1945 and are holding Berlin, that should be a draw! if the Germans take Leningrad, Moscow, and Rostov in 1941, that should be a win! Play balance can be determined based upon this.

So jediael, if you are doing as good as the Germans did, you are playing well enough, since your Soviet opponent has the benefit of not defending every hex, which the Soviets were somewhat ordered to do. Further if your loses are less than the Germans had historically, or you have inflicted more casualties on the Soviets than they actually received Historically, than these would bo other good measurements as to how well you are doing (all within the limits of the play balance in the game of course).



SheperdN7 -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (2/1/2018 7:13:16 AM)

A big benchmark goal is to make the Soviet number of AFV's less than the Axis (specifically German) AFV's by Mid '42. I look at that as a great indicator of Soviet offensive strength and industrial capability.



Nix77 -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (2/1/2018 1:00:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

A big benchmark goal is to make the Soviet number of AFV's less than the Axis (specifically German) AFV's by Mid '42. I look at that as a great indicator of Soviet offensive strength and industrial capability.


The Soviet player can just plainly deny any chance for the Axis to destroy the AFVs, so I don't think that's really a good goal at all. It could be a side effect of efficient encirclements and heavy battles, but the Soviet player actually decides if the AFVs are in the front line or not. AFV factories are also relatively easy to evacuate to the Urals.

Destroying AFVs may become important later on in the war when tank corps are becoming more efficient, but I'm not so familiar with that part of the game yet.



SheperdN7 -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (2/11/2018 1:32:49 PM)

quote:

The Soviet player can just plainly deny any chance for the Axis to destroy the AFVs, so I don't think that's really a good goal at all. It could be a side effect of efficient encirclements and heavy battles, but the Soviet player actually decides if the AFVs are in the front line or not. AFV factories are also relatively easy to evacuate to the Urals.

Destroying AFVs may become important later on in the war when tank corps are becoming more efficient, but I'm not so familiar with that part of the game yet.



I only play AI so I was assuming OP was as well, and I'd stand by my post that AFV reduction is a good goal against AI.



Crackaces -> RE: Axis Early Game Benchmarks + Questions (2/11/2018 5:10:35 PM)

I think there are many metrics to gauge success. It all depends on the game you are playing. The regular campaign with no immediate victory point sudden death milestones is a very different problem than games with sudden death. I am playing a regular campaign. For the German's keeping the Soviets out of Berlin is the ultimate objective. To accomplish that there are multiple indices to measure including manpower, population, number of units, air force strength, numbers and types of factories etc.
Although certain factories come with deep penetration -- taking territory means nothing if you are unsupplied and have to retreat. Worse unsupplied isolated and destroyed.

I might suggest that the measurements of success align with an overall plan. Objectives taken on time, forces in the planned positions, enemy objectives taken, etc .. that all align with the plan for victory.



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