Barbarossa Timing (Full Version)

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Taxman66 -> Barbarossa Timing (1/21/2018 10:13:40 PM)

I'm steeling a quote from Harrybanana from his AAR for discussion:

quote:


Not having played me before KZ you had no reason to believe that I would not attack Russia in the Spring of 41. But IMHO attacking Russia any sooner then you have to (ie when it's mobilization reaches about 80) is a big mistake. Sure Russia will be stronger the longer you wait, but Germany will be even stronger as prior to Barbarossa it will be out producing Russia by a wide margin. Also if it waits to attack Russia the Axis can in the meantime employ the Luftwaffe to gain other objectives, like Egypt and the Middle East or, if necessary, Algeria. Also as soon as you attack Russia US mobilization begins to increase. Not relevant in our game of course, where the US entered the War before Russia, but an important factor in most games.



Is this the general consensus?
Personally, I think these are bad perverse incentives. As noted it contributes to the Axis going wild in North Africa (as discussed in the 'Air power still seems overpowered' thread.
Additionally, it leads credence to the 'Max out the USSR mobilization' choices as an attempt to counter. Which is basically choosing the absolute reverse of historical choices.






Leadwieght -> RE: Barbarossa Timing (1/22/2018 3:05:45 AM)

I guess I am still haunted by the desire not to repeat the Germans' mistakes in Russia in the real war. Unless I have gotten myself tied up with a protracted Sealion or conquest of Algeria, I try to invade the USSR in May 1941 to maximize the number of good weather turns before the first winter. And most of my abler opponents seem to follow this course as well. But then, I usually do a "39 rush" and conquer France 2-3 turns before the historical date, which makes it easier to do an early Barbarossa. To that end, I also try to dispatch Yugoslavia and Greece quickly in the fall of 1940.

With an early start and a minimum of luck, one can take Leningrad late in the fall of 1941 and be set up with 2 or 3 lines of attack vs. Moscow in the spring of 1942, while also grabbing most of the Donets Basin.

Waiting until July or August 1941 seems a mistake to me.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Barbarossa Timing (1/22/2018 7:37:39 PM)

I believe waiting is a mistake.

1) If USSR declares war first they get to withdraw all the reinforcements. That's bad, very bad.

2) The objective for Axis is to gain as much ground before the winter '41 and the Siberian troops arrive (Spring 42).

3) By April/May '41 the USSR will have bought all possible corps after that they will invest in Research.
This research will get the USSR troops closer to parity much earlier. The additional time makes the AXis attack far better troops.

4) In addition to the research the USSR troops will fully entrench and the engineers will build significant additional fortifications.

I would think that the Axis attacks USSR once it has has the troops to wipe out ALL (at least 90%) of the Soviet reinforcements (excluding Leningrad) that arrive when they attack.








Harrybanana -> RE: Barbarossa Timing (1/22/2018 10:58:37 PM)

I have now been forced to reconsider my position. In another game where I was playing Allies I put everything I had into attacking Italy as soon as it entered the War. This means that I moved the BEF and RAF to Egypt to attack Libya and used the RN to attack the Italian fleets in port. This worked better than I expected. I destroyed 3BBs + other assorted naval units. I destroyed 3 Italian Armies, 1 Italian HQ and the DAK (including Rommel) in Libya. I was in Tripoli by mid 41.

But in the meantime, without British help, the French folded quickly with minimal losses to the Wehrmacht. This left my opponent free to invest in tech and launch Barbarossa in April 41. My Russians had spent heavily on tech themselves so had few units to defend with. My play was poor compared to my opponent and my friend captured Leningrad and was on the verge of capturing Moscow before the end of 41 when I surrendered.

So I would now say that the proper time to attack Russia probably depends on the game situation. If the Luftwaffe are needed elsewhere than delay Barbarossa. If they are not than an early attack may be preferable.



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