British Indian Ships and Troops Question (Full Version)

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Rogue187 -> British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 7:06:32 PM)

I am starting to get a build up of ships and troops in Aden and Colombo and I have no idea what I am supposed to do with them. I have studied a lot of the Pacific action, be the Burma-China-India Theater is something I am really weak with. As I understand it, most of the action was on land and fairly static after Burma fell. I know the Japaneses made a couple of attempts to invade India, but they weren't successful. I know I need to build up along the India-Burma border, but should I use Auzzie arriving in Aden for this or just keep them going to Oz? Do I just take the British ships and put them in Oz, too?



Lecivius -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 7:16:38 PM)

It all depends on what you plan to do in the next year or so. What is your current plan of action for the future?



Canoerebel -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 7:17:08 PM)

It's up to you, depending on how you read you game, the threats and the opportunities.

In the Real War, the Allies all but ignored Sumatra, Malaya and Java in order to focus on other vectors. You can change that. Many/most players do.

Early in the game, your strategy will depend on perceived or realized threats to India and/or Oz.

Later in the game (sometimes as early as late 1942, cough, cough) you may choose a course that takes you to Sumatra or wherever.

By late game, even if you've pretty much ignored the DEI to that point, you'll probably have enough assets to open a new theater in the DEI if you think it makes sense to do so.

The main thing about British and Commonwealth troop pools is that they're limited. It's best not to get a bunch of British and Australian divisions torn up. But that's something we all probably have to learn...just as we have to learn not to go and get our carriers sunk in 1942 in the zeal of inexperience.



anarchyintheuk -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 7:25:17 PM)

I hate to say that it all depends . . . but it all depends. I'm assuming it's somewhere around 2/42. Are you playing solo or not? If not, have you seen signals intelligence indicating an invasion of India or Australia? Is Japan pushing up from Burma towards the Chittagong-Ledo line or have they invaded Darwin? Do you even care if they do? It's more about what areas you want to secure preparatory to countering in 43.

Re: RN, remember that the vast majority have withdrawal dates.



adarbrauner -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 7:28:17 PM)

Destinations, Toyohara, in summer, and Okinawa in winter



jwolf -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 8:36:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Re: RN, remember that the vast majority have withdrawal dates.


Be very careful about this. If a ship to be withdrawn gets severely damaged, you can be in a world of trouble. Always look ahead to the ship withdrawing list before you plan any major naval movements and operations.



witpqs -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 8:45:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rogue187

I am starting to get a build up of ships and troops in Aden and Colombo and I have no idea what I am supposed to do with them. I have studied a lot of the Pacific action, be the Burma-China-India Theater is something I am really weak with. As I understand it, most of the action was on land and fairly static after Burma fell. I know the Japaneses made a couple of attempts to invade India, but they weren't successful. I know I need to build up along the India-Burma border, but should I use Auzzie arriving in Aden for this or just keep them going to Oz? Do I just take the British ships and put them in Oz, too?

I recommend you read Defeat into Victory, subtitle Battling Japan in Burma and India, 1942-1945, by Field-Marshal Viscount Slim.

The issue of how to handle things there in the game is mostly up to personal choice but is influenced by game mechanics and hindsight. Even if the game mechanics would allow the same thing to happen as happened IRL (defeat of Japanese forces in India followed by rapid Allied advance to Rangoon), the Japan player is unlikely to have everything the same on their side as Japan did historically.

I will say this. After I read the book I was amazed how - at a high level - the game engine gave a good enough accounting of history there.



adarbrauner -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 10:42:40 PM)

General ,than Field -Marshal, Slim, was commander of the (#? don't remember) British (CW) Army at Burma's border; he after wrote the official history for that theatre; in the book he strongly discounted Charles Orde Wingate and his operate , read the creation of the Chindit force and subsequent operations;

a great many argue against that's bias, originated by the pretty bad relation with Wingate, who used to relate with collegues and particularly superiors with stanch arrogance and dispise for their military mind narrowness, and for his attitude to by pass them byappealing directly to Churchill leveraging political and PR issues;
gathered a nice lot of enmity at Dehli, but also some potent protectors such as Wavell and Lord Moutbatten (not to say Churchill himself);


by his many supporters and admirers, including first his former Chindit subordinates, he was considered the greatest British military genius of the century, and their undiscussed leader, for whom his troops were ready to do everything with him at lead as he always did;


He's also extremely well esteemed and revered till today by the Israel Army, by which he's considered its first inceptor and inspirer, the IDF proudly states it's continuing the legacy and modus operandi of Wingate;




he



philabos -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 10:44:00 PM)

+1 for Defeat into Victory, also on SecDef reading list.
Slim took all blame on his own shoulders and gave credit to his subordinates for the successes.
A rare individual.



adarbrauner -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 10:53:03 PM)

Gen. Slim

[image]local://upfiles/55335/653FA4CA7EC544B7B3E67F179AF41BA7.jpg[/image]



adarbrauner -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 10:54:18 PM)

Burma

[image]local://upfiles/55335/FE13376C79A7424DB77BBD18CC366F71.jpg[/image]



adarbrauner -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 10:57:04 PM)

The Chindits

[image]local://upfiles/55335/BE185488A54942DC9D499C2A55A86FE2.jpg[/image]



adarbrauner -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 11:03:30 PM)

I don't think that any other operation in the war ever surpassed the Chindits for vision, perseverance up to humans limits and behind, determination, skills, training, daringness, personal example and leadership, sheer courage and adherence to the goals.

No wonder Churchill liked it. Not so much Gen Slim, for his own reasons.



Rogue187 -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 11:03:33 PM)

I am just playing against the AI. My plan is simple. Stop the Japanese expansion. Recapture lost territory. Win the war. So there is a bit of wiggle room. I have heard some people post something along the lines of "transports in port are transports wasted." I have been trying to keep them busy moving supplies (and fuel from time to time) but I am depleting my off board bases (Aden, Cape Town, Mombasa) and now need to wait for them to rebuild supply. It just leaves me at a loss when I have 40 xAKs, some CA, CLs and weak CVs sitting around doing nothing.



btd64 -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/8/2018 11:28:00 PM)

Send them to the Pacific....GP



Lovejoy -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/9/2018 12:01:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rogue187
I have heard some people post something along the lines of "transports in port are transports wasted." I have been trying to keep them busy moving supplies (and fuel from time to time) but I am depleting my off board bases (Aden, Cape Town, Mombasa) and now need to wait for them to rebuild supply.


You might consider using them to ship supply and fuel (depending on your position on using AKs to haul fuel) from the East Coast to Cape Town.



Rogue187 -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/9/2018 1:56:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovejoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rogue187
I have heard some people post something along the lines of "transports in port are transports wasted." I have been trying to keep them busy moving supplies (and fuel from time to time) but I am depleting my off board bases (Aden, Cape Town, Mombasa) and now need to wait for them to rebuild supply.


You might consider using them to ship supply and fuel (depending on your position on using AKs to haul fuel) from the East Coast to Cape Town.



I understand where the no fuel on AKs comes from. I don't know if some were fitted out with bladders or had their cargo holds modified to carry large quantities of fuel in real life. I think most players just envision hundreds and hundreds of 55 gallon drums being loaded onto the ship. Personally, I am surprised by the lack of tankers in the early game. I don't know how many I have active (I'm in January 1942), but I would guess between 30-40 off the top of my head. I have never researched it but that just seems low. Did the US, Britain, Australia, DEI, India, and New Zealand only had about three dozen tankers available in the Pacific? Really?



JeffroK -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/9/2018 4:15:15 AM)

Wingate, maybe a good Brigade commander. The Allies had many of these.

Slim, a superb Army commander. Very few available.



Chris21wen -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/9/2018 6:28:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rogue187


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovejoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rogue187
I have heard some people post something along the lines of "transports in port are transports wasted." I have been trying to keep them busy moving supplies (and fuel from time to time) but I am depleting my off board bases (Aden, Cape Town, Mombasa) and now need to wait for them to rebuild supply.


You might consider using them to ship supply and fuel (depending on your position on using AKs to haul fuel) from the East Coast to Cape Town.



I understand where the no fuel on AKs comes from. I don't know if some were fitted out with bladders or had their cargo holds modified to carry large quantities of fuel in real life. I think most players just envision hundreds and hundreds of 55 gallon drums being loaded onto the ship. Personally, I am surprised by the lack of tankers in the early game. I don't know how many I have active (I'm in January 1942), but I would guess between 30-40 off the top of my head. I have never researched it but that just seems low. Did the US, Britain, Australia, DEI, India, and New Zealand only had about three dozen tankers available in the Pacific? Really?


Probably due to the other war going on at the time.



Macclan5 -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/9/2018 12:01:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rogue187

I understand where the no fuel on AKs comes from. I don't know if some were fitted out with bladders or had their cargo holds modified to carry large quantities of fuel in real life. I think most players just envision hundreds and hundreds of 55 gallon drums being loaded onto the ship. Personally, I am surprised by the lack of tankers in the early game. I don't know how many I have active (I'm in January 1942), but I would guess between 30-40 off the top of my head. I have never researched it but that just seems low. Did the US, Britain, Australia, DEI, India, and New Zealand only had about three dozen tankers available in the Pacific? Really?


Yes really... [8D] I think the game portrays this very accurately.

1) is mentioned already... a War in the Atlantic. North America had to float fuel oil to the fortress United Kingdom as the Med was closed to the British.

2) Check out the wiki threads on Escort Carriers and what they were designed from ... The Sangamon class as a specific example - they were built from Tankers as I recall... or shipframes laid down as tankers.

3) While the United States shipped oil / fuel around the world in those days as a very larger exporter... they were not specifically "American Ships" carrying that supply. Japan had quite a few because they depending upon the USA for something like 90% of their oil / fuel pre war. I am sure you read that part some where before.








Macclan5 -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/9/2018 12:23:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rogue187

I know I need to build up along the India-Burma border, but should I use Auzzie arriving in Aden for this or just keep them going to Oz? Do I just take the British ships and put them in Oz, too?

...

I am just playing against the AI. My plan is simple. Stop the Japanese expansion. Recapture lost territory. Win the war. So there is a bit of wiggle room. I have heard some people post something along the lines of "transports in port are transports wasted." I have been trying to keep them busy moving supplies (and fuel from time to time) but I am depleting my off board bases (Aden, Cape Town, Mombasa) and now need to wait for them to rebuild supply. It just leaves me at a loss when I have 40 xAKs, some CA, CLs and weak CVs sitting around doing nothing.



As the experts say.. it depends [:D]

You are in very early days and playing the AI as I recall.

From one rookie to another.

The overall strategy is to win the war through superior logistics management and projecting force.

One of the most oft cited tactics I have learned from our esteemed veterans is "Japan cannot be strong every where, hit them where they are weak" especially in the early days.

--

My own tactics plan that I have come to develop "for all those ships" ...

1) Upgrade as many as you can early; especially to xAP. I also like the upgrades to xAG xAKE but other vets are less enthusiastic. I like the early AA for example.

2) Maintain a 'minimum quorum' of xAK, xAP in: a) Aden b) Mombasa c) Capetown and use some Brits or Dutch in d) Panama Canal Zone.

Perhaps 15 of each for example. Spare a KV , Patrol Boat, or even Destroyer or 2 for escort duty.

If you scan your upcoming Ground Forces re-enforcement schedule and Air Group Re-enforcement schedule you will note dribs and drabs will show up periodically in these off map sites through 1942.

Nice to have a minimum flotilla "ready to load and go" as opposed to waiting for the shipping to arrive.

3) Another quorum of Tankers and some xAKs for fuel/supplies to India obviously. Abdaban wont run out of fuel for you. Capetown wont run out of supplies for you. Run it into India. Pile it into India. Amass it into India. It may not leak through the borders to Burma very fast but those supplies and fuel are better in India than sitting in port.

And yes a Capetown to Perth run is probably standard though you can bleed Capetown dry of fuel fairly easy. So some tanker may need to actually fill Capetown - both from Eastern USA (common tactic) but you can also safely accomplish the same from Abdaban using micromanagement of "do not unload and home port" settings.

4) Which after above still leave a serious ton of extra xAPs, and xAKs.

Shift them on map / off map to where you need them for point of attack. If Japan is ignoring the Marshalls and Gilberts early - get your extra shipping to support some invasions. If Japan is ignoring the Solomans and Coral Sea -- get supplies and troops there... if Japan is ignoring Burma... see if you can supply and re-enforce Akylab, and Ramree Island -- maybe other points south...

Cheers




rustysi -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/9/2018 5:39:20 PM)

quote:

Did the US, Britain, Australia, DEI, India, and New Zealand only had about three dozen tankers available in the Pacific? Really?


I don't know the numbers, but I'm aware that when the U.S. entered the war the shortage of tankers was an issue. In addition to that 'Operation Drumbeat' put a dent in those numbers, to an extent where Churchill commented to Roosevelt about it.



philabos -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/9/2018 10:32:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

General ,than Field -Marshal, Slim, was commander of the (#? don't remember) British (CW) Army at Burma's border;



he

British 14th Army. Made up of British, Indian, and West African troops.
Weinberg describes his advance after Imphal as the 14th Army's Jungle Blitzkrieg.



boldrobot -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/10/2018 3:24:50 AM)

Everything below might be a terrible idea, I don't really know as this is my first campaign and I'm only a little over 4 months in. But here's what I have been doing so far with all of those guys and in the theater in general:

I directed as many of the British and Australian troops as I could to Rangoon. A ton of troops show up in Aden, my route for them was by ship to Karachi, then by rail to Calcutta, then by ship to Rangoon. The last leg of the trip is treacherous, since the AI can cover the approach into Rangoon with land-based air. I've tried to pick fast xAPs and xAKs for the run from Calcutta and set them on full speed. I got as much CAP into Burma as I could. I also pulled as much armor out of India as I could find.

Ended up with about 60-70k troops in Rangoon when the Japanese arrived in late Feb '42 (I evacuated Moulmein and Pegu, better player could probably defend them). They easily held off the IJA attacks for a little over a month, then forced the Japanese out of the hex with about 3 days of deliberate attacks in early April. A few divisions pursued them to Pegu but I'm not sure I'll be able to break through. My goal is to push the Japanese at least out of Pegu and hopefully back into Thailand.

Meanwhile about 10k Japanese troops are advancing on Mandalay, where I have only token forces. I'll probably not bother to defend the area since it's difficult to get to, and instead meet them somewhere between Chittagong and Ledo. Would rather focus on defending the airfields at Prome and Akyab for now. I've sent base forces and some Indian brigades to both, and will probably send a few thousand British troops to Prome.

I've organized the British ships that arrive into a CTF with Indomitable and uh the other one that isn't Hermes and a SAG with the handful of BBs, CAs, etc. that show up. They've been useful at stopping occasional IJN forays into the Indian Ocean. The AI has sent a couple cruiser forces and the odd destroyer or two into the Bay of Bengal. At one point the BBs found and sunk a convoy with about 20k Japanese troops - I think maybe it was headed for Akyab or Calcutta. The SAG has also been useful for occasionally bombarding Moulmein to suppress the airfield.

Supply/Fuel I've been building up at Colombo, Calcutta, and Rangoon, and to a lesser extent Bombay.

Basically anything arriving via Aden or Abadan has been sent into Burma or NE India. Maybe I should be sending more of these guys to Australia? I dunno. The Japanese so far aren't threatening Darwin at all.



crsutton -> RE: British Indian Ships and Troops Question (2/10/2018 4:08:41 AM)

The problem with the DEI is that American strategic planning placed a low priority on that theater and as result they were starved of assets. (This was probably the right decision though) The most critical lack was landing craft which mainly got allocated to the Pacific and Europe. If the Allies thought differently then they could have easily used landing operations to bypass Japanese troops in Burma as they did in New Guinea. As sole commander you can successfully pull this off. However, you will need to move assets from other theaters to do so.

I don't know if you play the AI or a human so the conditions vary greatly. Vs. the AI you can do it with a much lesser commitment. So do what you want. Go East or go West and just allocate your ships to do that.



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