RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (Full Version)

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Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/2/2018 2:01:16 PM)

I disagree. The 'lesser' victories can only be achieved by hitting the campaign end date.
I doubt any game that has been played would actually end in anything other than a decisive victory, one way or the other.

I'm not sure how Mika came up with those values, perhaps they could be tweaked a bit.




MrLongleg -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/2/2018 3:01:19 PM)

I think an ELO based system would make a lot of sense. I could also live with the simple Tennis tournament system...




nnason -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/2/2018 7:29:03 PM)

Does having different win/loss values for the different levels of victory make sense.
Example:
Draw is a tie no points or .....
Minor/Tactical worth .50
Major worth .75
Decisive worth 1????


Thoughts?




Sugar -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/2/2018 8:32:48 PM)

Perhaps it would be the easiest way to create a world championship like tourney, with a group stage and folowing k.o. system. The ranking of the first tourney could be used to setup the groups. This way the numbers of games could be limited to 6 (3 during group stage, 3 k.o.), and no difficult calculations had to be made. The sides of each game could be decided by a dice roll. A victory of any kind would be worth 3 points, a loss 0, and a draw 1; the eight best players would proceed to the quarter finale, the best 4 to semi-, and the 2 best to the finale.




LLv34Mika -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/2/2018 8:59:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Perhaps it would be the easiest way to create a world championship like tourney, with a group stage and folowing k.o. system. The ranking of the first tourney could be used to setup the groups. This way the numbers of games could be limited to 6 (3 during group stage, 3 k.o.), and no difficult calculations had to be made. The sides of each game could be decided by a dice roll. A victory of any kind would be worth 3 points, a loss 0, and a draw 1; the eight best players would proceed to the quarter finale, the best 4 to semi-, and the 2 best to the finale.


That would require to have all players in our tournament again. I think it will be very unlikely.

To your concerns about "stress". You still play a turn based game and a "fast" victory doesn't mean that you have to do more turns a day/week. That would be stressful. My suggestion only means that ending the game at an earlier point with a victory rewards that player. Just see it as some alternate way of deceisive/tactical/minor victory. Seeing how long someone can surive suits me more I think.

And the values/end dates are just a random shot. I know different systems that reward players/teams for higher victories or for keeping the battle up to score at least a few points. If different values and dates are better for any reason that is ok for me as well. It was just a suggestion.




Sugar -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/2/2018 9:29:54 PM)

Requires a number of players divisable by 4, if there won't be enough for a quarter finale, skip it.




nnason -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/3/2018 4:50:49 PM)

All,
I have calculated the ELO results for the first tournament. There are two games to finish. johanssb vs. Giovann1705 and KZ vs. Rannung61.

I can do second tournament anew or continue with these results. VOTES?????

Sugar 1087.82
KZ 1059.09
Rannung61 1029.55
pig100 1014.89
Sillyflower 1014.89
Hberg 1014.89
roon 1014.44
IrishGuards 1000.11
MrLongLeg 999.66
HamburgerMeat 999.66
Taxman66 999.66
LLv34Mika 985.00
Ironclad 985.00
BPINisBack 984.66
Amadeus 970.00
bullet912 969.89
PJL1973 969.89
Ktonos 969.89
nnason 969.88
YohanTM 969.11

I can see one anomie as Yohan has beaten me. I am 0 to 2 he is 2 to 4.




BPINisBACK -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/3/2018 8:53:03 PM)

YohanTM and me are playing a tournament Game too!!!




nnason -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/3/2018 11:30:21 PM)

BPINisBACK,
You all are in the next round. The one I will run.
Any comments about the tentative rules?




BPINisBACK -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 7:14:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nnason

BPINisBACK,
You all are in the next round. The one I will run.
Any comments about the tentative rules?



Great! Thank you for your quick answer!

Regarding the rules. I like the way you are going (both of you).

I think that the most important thing is to have fun. The game is fun, the players are usually funny guys.

So, the rules must be clear. Then, the ladder, tournament, and such thigs are "interesting" but not the main point.

Of course i want to thank you for your work. The game is more interesting with this system and your work.

Keep going on i think you are goint in the right direction!




LLv34Mika -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 2:58:47 PM)

I like my position in the middle... anyone up for a game? Want to ask before I simply challenge my first victim... I mean opponent.




nnason -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 3:50:47 PM)

All,
Near final rules update:

We have two games going right now. And Llv34Mika is looking for someone to play.

I will use the ELO Rating System. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system. I found a simple system to use here: https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/98469/elo-generator. I plan to start with the results of the last tournament. See above.
Note the ELO system is continuous. So it shows who is at top all the time. So we could keep this going after mods and/or say the addition of the Pacific Theater. We the community just have to agree.
The ELO system allows us to play as many games at the same time as we want. But, you don't have to play more than one game at a time.

Not sure how to handle challenges that are not accepted. Ideas? Theoretically if you win enough games and Sugar doesn't play any games you point score will surpass him. Practically if you don't play and win against Sugar it would take a lot of games. Maybe we should have something like you must complete two games every six months to remain an active player. Inactive players are not considered in the standings but can resume any time. Your thoughts???

House rules are allowed as long as both players agree.

I like Mika's suggestion of rewarding quick defeats and possibly rewarding longer games (players who stick with it to the bitter end.) There was a lot of discussion on this so right now don't plan on doing this.

I plan on some system that rewards players that play both sides against each other. The two games can be simultaneous, sequential, skipped after another opponent, or not at all. My idea if two players play and each wins 1 games that counts as 1 win for each. If one player wins both games that counts as 3 winds for the winner and only one loss for the looser. This would encourage dual haed-to-head games. Thoughts???

I plan on some system that rewards decisive, major, and minor victories. Thoughts?




PJL1973 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 4:11:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nnason

All,
Near final rules update:

We have two games going right now. And Llv34Mika is looking for someone to play.

I will use the ELO Rating System. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system. I found a simple system to use here: https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/98469/elo-generator. I plan to start with the results of the last tournament. See above.
Note the ELO system is continuous. So it shows who is at top all the time. So we could keep this going after mods and/or say the addition of the Pacific Theater. We the community just have to agree. - I'm okay with continuing with your existing ELO rankings, though others may wish it to be reset. However it should be kept to the basic game IMO, no mods or new scenarios, as these may have a different game balance

The ELO system allows us to play as many games at the same time as we want. But, you don't have to play more than one game at a time.

Not sure how to handle challenges that are not accepted. Ideas? Theoretically if you win enough games and Sugar doesn't play any games you point score will surpass him. Practically if you don't play and win against Sugar it would take a lot of games. Maybe we should have something like you must complete two games every six months to remain an active player. Inactive players are not considered in the standings but can resume any time. Your thoughts??? - A system that hides inactive players is a good idea. Whether their Elo rating should be reset, is another matter, I'm fine with it, but others may disagree

House rules are allowed as long as both players agree. - I would disagree, as it is effectively like a mod in that respect

I like Mika's suggestion of rewarding quick defeats and possibly rewarding longer games (players who stick with it to the bitter end.) There was a lot of discussion on this so right now don't plan on doing this. - Could be doable, as number of turns are tracked in PBEM

I plan on some system that rewards players that play both sides against each other. The two games can be simultaneous, sequential, skipped after another opponent, or not at all. Thoughts??? - Wouldn't the Elo system reward more play anyway. Not sure if this is needed, unless you make it compulsory, so as to ensure a fairer game balance

I plan on some system that rewards decisive, major, and minor victories. Thoughts? - Again, no objections to that






PJL1973 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 4:11:58 PM)

Mika - I would be fine with starting a new game, provided I play as the Allies.




nnason -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 4:22:09 PM)

Good comments from PJL1973 others???




MrLongleg -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 4:39:47 PM)

Okay with hiding inactive players

Okay with allowing house rules

I don't think we need to create incentives for symmetrical play

The ELO system has no concept of minor or major victory. In that case we would need a point system with a real tournament with a predefined number of games.




Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 4:42:25 PM)

Anything other than a decisive victory (for either side) is extremely unlikely to occur.

Major and minor victories require survival to the end date which is sometime in 1947 iirc.




YohanTM2 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 5:27:52 PM)

I do think we should have a graduated point system, might encourage people to fight on!




Sugar -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 5:33:33 PM)

Better to play more games than forcing people fighting a lost cause.




Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 6:48:46 PM)

Sugar, I see your point as well.

Though in most cases it is easy enough to predict with pretty good accuracy when the resigning Allied side would actually fall. For the Axis side there would be some incentive to play at least a bit on the defensive to get a feel of how long they could last.

I think making the games more than a zero sum win/loss is a good idea.




Sugar -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 7:26:51 PM)

Everybody can continue if he wants to already, it`s about forcing players to continue.




Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 8:00:25 PM)

It's about providing a granularity to the reward system, particularly for the loser.

For those, such as you appear to be, that only consider it a zero sum (win or loose) it won't be appealing.




Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 8:06:00 PM)

With a granular system, players can still resign. They just need to negotiate an agreed upon conquest date. Doesn't sound too hard to do... unless the 'winner' wants to be jerk and won't negotiate. Almost all of the time the loser should have a pretty good idea of when the end is coming. The only exception might be an Axis player who suddenly realizes that victory will be beyond his grasp but still has a lot of fight left.




LLv34Mika -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 8:59:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Anything other than a decisive victory (for either side) is extremely unlikely to occur.

Major and minor victories require survival to the end date which is sometime in 1947 iirc.


That's why I thought using the end date of a game for the points rewarded would be fun. But I'm not sure how to include it into an ELO rating. And keeping scores/points AND elo would be too much if you ask me. I can live with both.

btw, nnason
playing mirror games is fun but takes more time. Time might be the biggest problem for many players. Allowing it is okay for me but I wouldn't reward it with extra points. But since you host this tournament it is just up to you. I'm just trowing in my 0.02€.




pjg100 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/4/2018 9:27:42 PM)

Definitely not thrilled at a system that rewards mirror games. I barely have time for one game at a time, and sometimes not even that. Time constraints, for me, also put a premium on efficiently arriving at a determination of who wins, which puts me in the Sugar camp on that issue. I would if necessary fight it out to the bitter end, but that would make this seem more like work and less like recreation.




Sugar -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/5/2018 1:28:31 AM)

Perhaps KZ's ladder system is the most flexible, and the Elo-Rating could be used for the player with lesser rating to determine his preferred side, instead of the challenger (or a mirror game if both agree). Would be nice if the lower ranks could challenge anyone above no matter the difference, this would open the opportunity for the time challenged players to proceed with fewer games (if good enough of course).




MrLongleg -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/7/2018 10:01:20 PM)

Not a lot of activity here, I am ready for the next tournament...




Veloz -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/7/2018 10:25:11 PM)

once finish the AAR doing, if patches machtˇ ready for battle as German; if allys Francia will not be beaten.




Sugar -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/8/2018 1:01:00 AM)

Afaik we never met, up for a match?




Veloz -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (9/8/2018 5:37:52 AM)

azúcar right never ..never..never; meet;

once finish the AAR, send me PM; to discuss the pacht




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