RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (Full Version)

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PvtBenjamin -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/18/2018 2:55:46 PM)

It just depends what you are looking for from the experience. If your looking for a "game" or a "game that contains historic possibilities". To many SC realism IS the thing, thats why they play (or don't in some cases). Again the current mass bomber/air groups and the early amphibious capabilities are no where near realistic. I believe they are a major disconnect from a game that otherwise does a phenomenal job re creating historic possibilities.

How can one argue that 90% of the Axis(or allied) airforce in Egypt is close to realistic?

How is Large Army groups carrying out amphibious assaults over hundreds (thousands) of miles for months in 1940 realistic?


If your looking for a "game" and believe having these abilities improves this experience that is absolutely fine.

I prefer a more historical game, that is just me.

Don't get me wrong I love the game, these are just changes I think would improve it.



LLv34Mika -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/18/2018 2:58:23 PM)

what is QG???

but yes, the British have to be more powerful. As said, just two mines are by far enough.

And if someone complains that the Axis powers are too weak that is just a sign of lack of skills if you ask me. Sorry if that sounds not nice but a good axis player kills EVERY allied player.

In my game vs Amadeus he made several mistakes and still captures Stalingrad, Moscow and Leningrad... the first two by end of 1942. The simple "get London and it is over" mechanics is another strange thing. Changing that to "take London AND Manchester or Liverpool would help much. If the Axis hold London until the end of the game it could still be a minor victory. But capturing the city shouldn't end the game.



Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/18/2018 3:07:08 PM)

The problem there is capturing all 3 big Russian cities even with making mistakes.



Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/18/2018 3:12:07 PM)

Along with taking Egypt through Iraq/Persia, taking the 3 key Soviet cities in a majority of games where skill levels of the players are equal.



Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/18/2018 3:14:59 PM)

Not to disparage Sugar, and his skill may be better than anyone elses... But sheer dumb luck should not let him run the table and have a 56 - 0 record.



room -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/18/2018 3:15:50 PM)

QG sorry it's french for the command unit.



Hubert Cater -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/19/2018 8:43:55 PM)

Thanks for the feedback everyone and Bill and I are discussing any potential changes. Keep in mind that we have to be careful as what we have found is that new players to the game more often than not tend to find the Axis side harder, but over time, and once they learn the nuances of the game engine and workable strategies, will eventually come around seeing that things are not as one sided as it may have initially seemed. For example, some of our most harshest criticisms of the game over at Steam all stem from the idea that the Allies are too strong and that the Axis simply cannot win.

Another critical item, and essentially the main reasons we have differing Infantry stats and Infantry Warfare research for the USSR in this release is that when we had it setup as we had done in the past, initial testing during Beta found that players simply were not able to break through or maintain any type of historical objective timeline as the Axis when first invading the USSR. So going back to those numbers would just exasperate the idea that the Allies are too tough for new players and would be more or less a non starter at this point in terms of potential changes.

The original idea was to ideally weaken the USSR for the initial stages of Barbarossa so as to allow the Axis side the ability to push deep as they did historically, but to eventually give the USSR enough tools and ability to start to push back and counter attack. If the latter portion is the bigger problem in the grand scheme of things, then that is where I believe we should put more effort into fixing than anything else. That and possibly boosting the UK to hold out a bit better between the Fall of France and the start of Barbarossa as well.

We have a list of ideas based on all the feedback and once we narrow things down on our end to hopefully an ideal set of changes that keeps in mind all of what I've written above and addresses the concerns stated here, then I think we should be good to go.



Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/19/2018 9:07:20 PM)

Hubert,

Thanks for your attention to the issue and your comments.

An idirect issue of what we are discussing, is that the current situation promotes only 1 basic strategy and has failed to find a counter to it.

There is little pressure for the Axis to try risky moves. Slow and steady, don't get your units killed and any opposition can be overwhelmed by either Economic advantage, Quality advantage, Quantity advantage or some combination.

Perhaps whatever adjustments are considered be made as an option selection so that it could turned on for pbem and/or high level play and not interfere with rookie game experience.

Part of the rookie experience you mentioned is I believe, in my opinion, due to the fact that the AI performs better as the Allies than it does as the Axis.




Rannug61 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/19/2018 10:47:10 PM)

Hi

A small thing that could help Russia would be to have russian antitank units at level one at the start of the game. This would not hinder the Axis in 41 but be a bit of a roadblock in 42 and onwards. Right now russia is to weak to counterattack before the game is over. This might not be true for green players but on a medium skill level axis has an advatage and on Terif/Suger level things can only go one way. Allies(Sugar) can not beat Axis(Sugar).



Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/19/2018 10:53:26 PM)

Or just a starting chit in AT, so when the DE pops up to get them they'd be at level 1.

However, that wouldn't help that much, because in most games German tanks will be at level 3 (and perhaps at or near level 4) by then and the AT won't hurt them that much (particularly if they have experience pips and are likely attached to strong HQs).



Vichyssoise -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/19/2018 11:17:41 PM)

Should (potentially drastic) changes be made solely because 1 excellent player, namely Sugar, has found a winning strategy? Now that his opponents are aware of some aspects of this strategy, they might find a way to counter it.

According to Hubert, there are people who think that the Allies are too powerful, others will say that the Axis is too powerful, and all of this depends on their opposition (AI, players of different skills and abilities...). It's always a matter of perspective. I only play against the expert AI and I always feel that I have my hands full regardless of the side I pick. Might be because I'm a bad player, but the challenge's enough for me.

If the German Baseball team was to play the US Baseball team 56 times, chances are that the American team would win at least 90+% of the games. Should the rules of the game be changed to make it more difficult for the US team to win against this particular opponent?

Unless I misunderstood some of the ongoing discussion, I believe that the main problem at the moment is the ability to send air units almost anywhere with little regard for plausibility. This should be addressed first.

As for the rest, there always will be a player who's above the rest of the pack in terms of ability. I don't remember reading that the organizers of the French Open tweaked the rules to suit Rafael Nadal's opponents.

Just my 2 cents. I'm looking forward to learning about the solution Hubert and Bill come up with.



Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/19/2018 11:35:14 PM)

It's not just Sugar who is using this successfully.



Rannug61 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/19/2018 11:41:29 PM)

If you put a starting chit in AT the russians can sell it just like we do with the german rocket chit. It is better to just have them at level one at the start of the game and the russians might invest in more AT. At level 3 antitank units starts to give german tanks some trouble. I have AT leval 3 in a ongoing game as russia and it really helps. This alone will not save the russians when facing a good axis player but it might be a part of a solution to a better balance on the eastern front.



KorutZelva -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/20/2018 12:43:14 AM)

I wonder if USSR unit are bumped back to par quality with the rest of the other powers if that would balance things? Even being in a better fighting shape they are too few so Germany would still be able to make a big initial Barbarossa grab. However... the pressure would be higher to act fast before they can increase their unit count or reach complete tech parity (a March push would likely be more desirable than a September one). This might give more of a breather to the UK in NA... Also, it would require a bigger contribution from Axis air to dig as deep as before during the Barbarossa first stages again take some heat on the UK.



Ktonos -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/20/2018 2:06:33 AM)

Have you considered instead of tweaking the Soviets, to boost the French? Historically the French were far more powerful than in game. In any WW2 strategy game in fact. But because the whole escalation to a world war started with the fall of France, every single game deals with the German invasion the same way; They present a France with a weak army which is impossible to not defeat. As if the game would be a failure should the Germans be unable to overcome France.



KorutZelva -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/20/2018 7:59:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ktonos

Have you considered instead of tweaking the Soviets, to boost the French? Historically the French were far more powerful than in game. In any WW2 strategy game in fact. But because the whole escalation to a world war started with the fall of France, every single game deals with the German invasion the same way; They present a France with a weak army which is impossible to not defeat. As if the game would be a failure should the Germans be unable to overcome France.


I'm not too sure I would go that route. I think the majority of people are ok with France as hors-d'oeuvre. While it can't defeat the German outright, it can still act as spoiler. France frequently last until August already with some UK help.



LLv34Mika -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/20/2018 4:58:17 PM)

Thanx for your feedback Hubert... much appreciated

What we also discussed (and I really like that idea) is that the game shouldn't end instantly when the three russian cities, Cairo and London are conquered. It would help if the game would end when the allies can't take the city back in the same turn if if they have to capture London AND Manchester.

The problem is that there is virtually no defense against an Axis player just bombing any unit out of London and then drop a paratrooper to end the game.

Right now I'm playing a game vs Amadeus and it is 100% sure that I would win this game (well, I think it is 100% sure, have not asked him). My only problem is that attack London from above thing.

My Russians stopped the German attack but can not fight back yet. My British/US troops just fight all the way back from Iraq. I just liberated Syria butI still need time to get to Cairo and the British Island is full with fighters and troops (I hope that is defense enough but I doubt it will be).

So it is pretty historical... 95% of the Axis fleet is gone, the sea is mine and the western allies and the USSR just start to fight all their way back to win that war. With the little technical problem that the game is over as soon as there is one single unit in London. That hurts...



Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/20/2018 7:50:36 PM)

Here is a perfect example of German near invulnerability and Soviet ineffectiveness from my current on going game:

Axis Turn:
The Army in Luga is probed by an attack from a German corps that does no damage to either side (At full entrenchment and with HQ support)

Allied Turn:
A full strength Soviet Army (lvl 2) in Luga with 75% Readiness, 68% Morale and HQ support has a combat prediction of 1:0 vs.:
An 8 strength Italian Corps (lvl 2) in a forest hex with 58% Readiness, 46% morale, supply 5, and no entrenchment.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/20/2018 9:55:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Here is a perfect example of German near invulnerability and Soviet ineffectiveness from my current on going game:

Axis Turn:
The Army in Luga is probed by an attack from a German corps that does no damage to either side (At full entrenchment and with HQ support)

Allied Turn:
A full strength Soviet Army (lvl 2) in Luga with 75% Readiness, 68% Morale and HQ support has a combat prediction of 0:1 vs.:
An 8 strength Italian Corps (lvl 2) in a forest hex with 58% Readiness, 46% morale, supply 5, and no entrenchment.



There is a defense bonus due to forest for Italian. A level 3 (not 2) USSR Army is in between a level 2 Axis Corp and Army in cost & characteristics. Check the characteristics ( no demoralization etc) for USSR Army. The Shock Army is the equivalent of the Axis Army. What were the experience differences?

The only ground troops that can do damage for the USSR are Tanks/Mech/Shock & Special Forces. I've given up on anti tank they are basically useless for attack until level 3 or 4.

USSR army & corps best for blocking, de-entrenching, scouting & defense.



Taxman66 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/20/2018 10:28:01 PM)

Actually need to correct that. Prediction was 1:0. As in Russians take damage, and Italians don't.

Both 0 exp.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/21/2018 12:16:39 PM)

I feel your pain. Thems the rules.

The only ground troops that can do damage for the USSR are Tanks/Mech/Shock & Special Forces. I've given up on anti tank they are basically useless for attack until level 3 or 4.

USSR army & corps best for blocking, de-entrenching, scouting & defense.



bullet911 -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/22/2018 6:42:00 AM)

Anybody still looking for an opponent? Would swing towards playing the allies but dont mind playing axis either. Email me the P/W if you go ahead and set up a game (39 scenario)



LLv34Mika -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/22/2018 5:41:26 PM)

still looking for someone? I'm up for a new game. So if you want I set up a game or you set one up and pick the side you want... doesn't matter. Whoever set up a game sends the PW via pm and it's fine.



KorutZelva -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/22/2018 8:58:35 PM)

Mika is still locked in a tourney game but I'm a valid opponent to challenge so I offer myself in a replacement opponent.



room -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/23/2018 7:58:28 PM)

I'd like an opponent: I ve just finished 3 games (2 defeat, 1 draw) so you should not worry too much about my abilities, I'm a good pick [:D]

I'd like the allies please.

Waiting for a challenge [:)]



KorutZelva -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/23/2018 8:14:53 PM)

To facilitate the issuance of challenges I'll add a * in front of player that are not locked in a game.



LLv34Mika -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/24/2018 8:39:50 AM)

since my game vs Amadeus ended to my big surprise I'm free for a challenge.

KZ, what are our tournament rankings right now? Totally lost any overview...



KorutZelva -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/24/2018 11:47:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LLv34Mika

since my game vs Amadeus ended to my big surprise I'm free for a challenge.

KZ, what are our tournament rankings right now? Totally lost any overview...


The first post of the thread is kept updated with all that info.



LLv34Mika -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/24/2018 1:10:16 PM)

game started vs room...

he plays allies, I play axis



nnason -> RE: Official Tourney Pyramid Thread (3/27/2018 12:20:01 PM)

NNason surrendered in late fall 1941 to YohanTM. See AAR thread for brief results.



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