Fire groups (Full Version)

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KLDaly -> Fire groups (2/25/2018 12:03:19 AM)

I dont remember what they called it when adjacent friendly-occupied hexes could combine their firepower into a fire group, but can that be done?? more to the point, will it be done?? Also, how come individual squad counters do not show their numeric statistics along with individual leader stats?? I guess I'm not going to shut up until everything is identical to SL or ASL. (ASL prefered) PS Snipers!! any plans??



UP844 -> RE: Fire groups (2/25/2018 12:38:37 AM)

Fire groups are not allowed. I do not know if they are feasible.

As regards to numeric values, there are several ASL mods that allow changing unit graphics.



KLDaly -> RE: Fire groups (2/25/2018 1:55:51 AM)

nice!! i'll have to look into it...as far as lateral fire groups being not allowed, that makes no sense they were an integral part of the mother-game....what about snipers?? cant do any stalingrad anything without snipers



piotre -> RE: Fire groups (2/26/2018 9:24:48 AM)

I had the same question about fire groups... I agree it would be great if they could be included in the game.



seagles -> RE: Fire groups (2/26/2018 4:12:20 PM)

Fire Groups -- you get used to their lack. Remember that this a unique game *inspired* by ASL. It is not intended to be digital ASL. If you expect the game to fully replicate an ASL experience, you're going to be frustrated.

Peter is very committed to adding features and expanding the scope of Tigers, but he's only one guy and does this as a labour of love. Don't let your expectations sour what is otherwise a very fun tactical gaming experience. [:)]

S.



pzgndr -> RE: Fire groups (2/27/2018 2:36:46 PM)

I have suggested some sort of incremental firing "bonus" for each subsequent unit firing on a target. The net effect in the end "should" be comparable to the old Fire Group rule. Something like this should be doable, and provide better results for units firing as a "group" even if they fire individually. Maybe not exactly like the old Fire Group rule but at least better than what we have now. Worth a try.



fuselex -> RE: Fire groups (3/2/2018 1:10:05 PM)

I`m more than likely the minority .
Someone who doesn`t know the full details of firegroups .
But for myself I enjoy the ToTH system as it is.
If you need to assault a stone building now you stack a group.
Of course a lucky shot can destroy your stack.
I could place 3 infantry units next to each other in cover to get a decent FP to assault the same stone building
But I figure that is just about reducing the risk to my troops.
I have been known to send 1 unit out to draw fire from the AI , if the comp used firegroups .
I feel I could send 1 unit out to draw fire from 2-3 enemy units.
Maybe one day , but is it practical atm ?







Gerry4321 -> RE: Fire groups (3/2/2018 5:32:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

I have suggested some sort of incremental firing "bonus" for each subsequent unit firing on a target. The net effect in the end "should" be comparable to the old Fire Group rule. Something like this should be doable, and provide better results for units firing as a "group" even if they fire individually. Maybe not exactly like the old Fire Group rule but at least better than what we have now. Worth a try.

Good idea and anything helps.

Problem now is if you cross a wide stretch of open ground you will have units in adjacent hexes (spread out as in real life). But they lose the effect of their potentially massive firepower. If they all fire at one enemy that should be factored in somehow whether it is firegroups or similar. To get firepower now you have to stack.

If this would put the AI at a disadvantage just give the AI some other benefit we players will not have.




Peter Fisla -> RE: Fire groups (3/2/2018 6:54:00 PM)

Coding interface for Fire groups functionality for the user is one thing, getting the feature to work with AI efficiently is on totally different level of complexity and difficulty.



pzgndr -> RE: Fire groups (3/3/2018 11:37:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
Coding interface for Fire groups functionality for the user is one thing, getting the feature to work with AI efficiently is on totally different level of complexity and difficulty.


True. But the AI can already handle two squads in adjacent hexes firing upon the same target, yes? If there was a Fire Group implementation they should be combined for a net result better than the two individual results. All I'm suggesting is for subsequent adjacent fires on the same target to receive a modest bonus similar to what the difference might have been. This should be a straightforward code check for an adjacent unit firing on the same target? Should work fine for both human players and AI without any additional AI coding. Again, this may not be exactly like the Fire Group rule but should provide better results for adjacent units firing upon the same target. Just a suggestion. Maybe it would help some.



rico21 -> RE: Fire groups (3/3/2018 1:15:33 PM)

Historically, has the fire group existed?
I doubt.
I did not read any tactical combat report or a guy said, "This morning we did a fire group on a guy in his trench. Instead of receiving 500 bullets, he got 1000."
This game is gained more by movement than by fire.



pzgndr -> RE: Fire groups (3/3/2018 5:35:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21
Historically, has the fire group existed?
I doubt.


Having been an infantry platoon leader and company commander, there's a damned good reason why officers direct fire of different subordinate units in different locations to mass fire on particular targets or kill zones. The Squad Leader boardgame attempted to simulate this increased effectiveness with the Fire Group rule. Just a way to reflect the reality that a group of some sort acting in unison is collectively more effective than the sum of individuals acting independently.

So yeah, historically some guy called a platoon leader or a company commander did say they directed platoon or company fire against a particular target, when all units were not all stacked together in the same hex. They just didn't say "We are using the Fire Group rule fellas..."



rico21 -> RE: Fire groups (3/4/2018 3:00:58 AM)

The fire groups do not take into account two things:
1- The Allies spend their ammunition in abundance, not the Germans.
2- The fire groups represents an excess of ammunition expenditure which is not compensated by its logical consequence, the shortage of ammunition.



pzgndr -> RE: Fire groups (3/4/2018 12:03:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21
The fire groups do not take into account two things:


Gee kid, when geezers like me were playing the Avalon Hill SL/ASL boardgames 40-some years ago, nobody was doubting the Fire Group rule, Rule #8.6 in the original SL rulebook to be specific. Another good rule was for MG penetration factor, Rule #17.5, to fire on multiple target hexes with the same dice roll and firepower during a single Fire Combat resolution, another thing that should be implemented in TotH. Ideally. These rules went through a lot of scrutiny and review for realism and historical accuracy and playability over the years and nobody doubted them. Until you... [8|]



rico21 -> RE: Fire groups (3/4/2018 12:35:15 PM)

40 years ago, I was not consulted![:D]



fuselex -> RE: Fire groups (3/4/2018 1:45:28 PM)

I think maybe we need to go back to the basics of ToTh ,
A game created from the desire to replicate memories .
It is and/not SL/ASL , it is a vision by one person ( maybe 2) to develop a great game
based on his, any many others experiences.
Peter has done an incredible job , the more we demand sl/asl rules , the further complicated it becomes.
I would guess ToTH was meant to be a very detailed game but not one overcome by rules.
Should Peter decide firegroups or not .I`m sure we will all cope .
But let it be for the benefit of the game



fuselex -> RE: Fire groups (3/4/2018 2:07:43 PM)

but a light hearted comment .
Someone referring to Rico as - Gee Kid -
Makes me feel young again


[image]local://upfiles/49575/38AF1116346D40BB8599E7EF81644629.jpg[/image]



pzgndr -> RE: Fire groups (3/4/2018 2:38:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fuselex
Peter has done an incredible job , the more we demand sl/asl rules , the further complicated it becomes.
I would guess ToTH was meant to be a very detailed game but not one overcome by rules.


I agree!! I'm really not being critical of Peter's decisions because I understand his intent, but for this Fire Group rule I'm just suggesting a possible improvement that should work. I also understand the challenge of coding the old MG penetration rule and why he went with rate of fire instead. It's all good.

FWIW, although I mention ASL out of respect I never played it. It was getting much too complicated and I didn't have time for it after high school. I did greatly enjoy SL and COI back in the day.



fuselex -> RE: Fire groups (3/4/2018 3:09:21 PM)

absolutely no offense meant .
The more ideas that are thrown around can only improve the game.
Fire groups may be the best thing that hit Toth ,
I don`t know
I imagine UP844 spent many hours posting comments that seemed to be dismissed .
Well I don`t think there would be many now who don`t enjoy his posts.
To the point that unless UP844 playtests things now , we are not sure :)
Every comment and idea is welcome pzgndr.
It`s a great community



rico21 -> RE: Fire groups (3/4/2018 4:27:56 PM)

OK for a fire group [:D]

[image]local://upfiles/53841/35FB397173A148EDBB883A884ABF3F7A.jpg[/image]



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