Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (Full Version)

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AFV -> Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/4/2018 10:23:31 AM)

Is there a hard cap of 2 bomb (units) missions per hex? If so, why? If not, then why can I 100% of the time bomb a hex and on the third mission get a message "no aircraft available" and then be able to bomb the hex next to it (exactly twice again)? I am not on the latest beta version.



Dinglir -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/4/2018 10:28:53 AM)

Yes, there is a limit on two bombing missions pr hex pr turn.

Otherwise you could reduce even the strongest defense in a single turn by bombing it repeatedly, over and over again.



Crackaces -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/4/2018 11:29:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV

Is there a hard cap of 2 bomb (units) missions per hex? If so, why? If not, then why can I 100% of the time bomb a hex and on the third mission get a message "no aircraft available" and then be able to bomb the hex next to it (exactly twice again)? I am not on the latest beta version.


The are tales of almost complete destruction of the Soviet Air Force on turn 1. Total miles flown as a constraint is not enough for a “fair” use of the Air Force. Over time additional constraints have been added to make the game playable.

1. Only the FIRST 33% of Miles flown can be used for air base bombing. That rule has an intended effect of limiting the destruction of the Soviet Air Force. A side effect is choosing targets wisely. After 33% miles flown aircraft groups will not fly air base bombing missions. So longer missions can Really reduce the number airbases bombed for say a shorter ranged air group. Like Stukas ...the use of staging bases is critical to extend range but know that extended range will absorb the first 33% of Miles flown. If you bomb say an important factory first that will be a part of the first 33%. So airbases are primary targets to look at first.

2 then the 2 attacks per HEX rule further reduces the carnage. Stack airbases on a target in clear terrain (like Osinovets) with fighters and the German has to choose targets. One little trick for Soviet airbases too close to the front line is to bomb them, then roll over the base, which will displace. Now because the target is in a new hex you can bomb them twice again.

One thing — ground support and interdiction are outside of this rule. So, you can ground bomb twice a unit twice and subsequently get multiple ground support flights to the same hex.

Keeping your airfice back while using staging bases has multiple effects given the two rules above.



Telemecus -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/4/2018 1:12:34 PM)

It was probably also added for playability. Those who did not find bombing the same hex repeatedly as an interesting game could not compete with those who did.



AFV -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/4/2018 6:55:51 PM)

Thanks all, it all makes sense.



Crackaces -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/5/2018 12:38:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

It was probably also added for playability. Those who did not find bombing the same hex repeatedly as an interesting game could not compete with those who did.


Then have a repeat mission function. Set up an attack and select repeat mission 'x' times. Also give the defense an advantage for each mission attempted .. "washing machine charley" rule :)



Telemecus -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/5/2018 12:44:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

It was probably also added for playability. Those who did not find bombing the same hex repeatedly as an interesting game could not compete with those who did.


Then have a repeat mission function. Set up an attack and select repeat mission 'x' times. Also give the defense an advantage for each mission attempted .. "washing machine charley" rule :)


Indeed I think that is almost the principle behind the new air system for WitW/WitE2 - although I feel the air directives take away too much control.



morvael -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/7/2018 8:18:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
1. Only the FIRST 33% of Miles flown can be used for air base bombing. That rule has an intended effect of limiting the destruction of the Soviet Air Force. A side effect is choosing targets wisely. After 33% miles flown aircraft groups will not fly air base bombing missions. So longer missions can Really reduce the number airbases bombed for say a shorter ranged air group. Like Stukas ...the use of staging bases is critical to extend range but know that extended range will absorb the first 33% of Miles flown. If you bomb say an important factory first that will be a part of the first 33%. So airbases are primary targets to look at first.

2 then the 2 attacks per HEX rule further reduces the carnage. Stack airbases on a target in clear terrain (like Osinovets) with fighters and the German has to choose targets. One little trick for Soviet airbases too close to the front line is to bomb them, then roll over the base, which will displace. Now because the target is in a new hex you can bomb them twice again.


I think there are no longer limits on % flown (perhaps with the exception of transfer and going to reserve and upgrading). This was replaced by limit of actions per hex to be more user friendly.
The only exception is German first turn on June 22nd, 1941.



Telemecus -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/7/2018 12:07:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
I think there are no longer limits on % flown (perhaps with the exception of transfer and going to reserve and upgrading). This was replaced by limit of actions per hex to be more user friendly.
The only exception is German first turn on June 22nd, 1941.


I usually do a very large number of bombing missions every turn, and the first 33% miles flown limit on airbase bombing still seems to be very much in place. I have not started a game on the latest version but have upgraded to it.

I agree the two bombings per hex (it used to be three) should be quite sufficient, no need to have the first 33% miles flown rule as well. And indeed the first 33% rule is very annoying as you have to plan to do airbase bombing first before anything else for that artificial reason.



morvael -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/7/2018 12:14:24 PM)

Perhaps % of miles flown is just that - that group is too exhausted to participate.

edit: what I mean is that there does not appear to be a hard cap (if % miles flown greater than 33% prevent airgroup from participating). It may be just a result of various semi-random formulas that take into account how fresh the group is.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/7/2018 12:19:30 PM)

33% hard cap limit is still in place for airfield bombing from my experience with the Axis and Soviet side.



Telemecus -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/7/2018 12:19:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Perhaps % of miles flown is just that - that group is too exhausted to participate.

edit: what I mean is that there does not appear to be a hard cap (if % miles flown greater than 33% prevent airgroup from participating). It may be just a result of various semi-random formulas that take into account how fresh the group is.


If that is so it would be surprising. In the EightMP team game for example I did hundreds of airbase bombing missions every turn and all bomber groups stopped bombing like clockwork when they got above 32 or 33% - they had no problem with ground bombing or city bombing however above 33%. It could be semi-random or because of some proxy to miles flown in airbase bombing missions but still seems spectacularly on the point every time?



morvael -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/7/2018 1:11:15 PM)

Perhaps this is a threshold at which the formula results in 0 planes flying. The only hard caps on % flown are those which require 0 miles flown.



morvael -> RE: Hard cap on Soviet bombing? (3/7/2018 1:11:58 PM)

I will look at this.



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