How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (Full Version)

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Cheimison -> How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/11/2018 4:42:43 AM)

I own TOAW3 but I never got very far into it because the interface was just a bit of an overload and I wasn't sure what needed to be paid attention to and when. I'm interested in picking up TOAW4 as it seems like a great lightweight (hardware-wise) game to run on my laptop, but I'm concerned I may face a similar issue.

I've played a variety of strategy and tactics games, but most of them are in the Europa Universalis or Pike & Shot order. A lot of the more in-depth games have pretty unintuitive interfaces that seem like they were designed in 1995 and this puts me off of playing them.



warspite1 -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/11/2018 5:29:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheimison

I own TOAW3 but I never got very far into it because the interface was just a bit of an overload and I wasn't sure what needed to be paid attention to and when. I'm interested in picking up TOAW4 as it seems like a great lightweight (hardware-wise) game to run on my laptop, but I'm concerned I may face a similar issue.

I've played a variety of strategy and tactics games, but most of them are in the Europa Universalis or Pike & Shot order. A lot of the more in-depth games have pretty unintuitive interfaces that seem like they were designed in 1995 and this puts me off of playing them.
warspite1

I think its difficult to get into if starting from scratch. In fact I don't think I would ever have been able to fathom it out on my own just from using the manual (but then I'm not the sharpest tool in the box [:(]).

But the great thing about the Matrix forums is that one doesn't need to work games out on their own [:)]

Lots of good people here happy to give advice, tips and well, in some cases, to actually explain what a whole concept is about (I am of course referring to the movement of time).

So my advice would be, choose a subject you love, one that you can get immersed in and give it a go - asking questions in the forum along the way.

The game is worth the time taken in my opinion [:)]



Cheimison -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/11/2018 6:07:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
The game is worth the time taken in my opinion [:)]

The combination of depth and versatility is what got me to get TOAW3. I'm not a big WW2 guy (HoI2 burnt me out on that particular conflict), but I can see there are already a number of 19th century and fantastic scenarios that I'd love to get into.

I have a similar problem with John Tiller games. The detail and settings appeal to me immensely but I have trouble getting the hang of what to do and how to do it.

Much of my strategy training comes from Paradox games, which are of course fake-time (really turn based but with auto-turn progression when unpaused) and that's quite a different thing from the plan-and-execute games like TOAW or Advanced Tactics.



gwgardner -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/11/2018 1:07:59 PM)

The War Room documentation and all the tutorials, from videos to scenarios, make it rather easy to get into, in my opinion.

Then when you play your first scenario, you will start to really grasp the time-stamp feature. Fiddle with that a bit, make a few 'mistakes,' and you'll get the hang of it.

From that point on, you'll continually pick up on other aspects. As an example, it was a couple of weeks into the game that I learned about the dig-in feature for artillery, putting them not only into a better defensive and supply state, but into local reserve. Now, not knowing that feature had not kept me from enjoying the game up till that point, but after knowing it I enjoyed things more. Seems like every day a new feature comes into play.



Oberst_Klink -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/11/2018 2:37:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheimison

I own TOAW3 but I never got very far into it because the interface was just a bit of an overload and I wasn't sure what needed to be paid attention to and when. I'm interested in picking up TOAW4 as it seems like a great lightweight (hardware-wise) game to run on my laptop, but I'm concerned I may face a similar issue.

I've played a variety of strategy and tactics games, but most of them are in the Europa Universalis or Pike & Shot order. A lot of the more in-depth games have pretty unintuitive interfaces that seem like they were designed in 1995 and this puts me off of playing them.

Have a look at the various tutorial scenarios, incl. slides, I have created for TOAW IV.

Tutorial '41: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4382552
Tutorial '42: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4387818
Tutorial '42 - Editor: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4401098
Tutorial '43: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4390285
Tutorial '43 - Combat: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4394374
Tutorial '44: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4397183
Tutorial '45: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4412329

Klink, Oberst



joey -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/11/2018 2:38:59 PM)

There are a whole lot of tutorials available in this forum that explain so much of the game. I would start watching them to get a feel for the game. j



MikeJ19 -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/11/2018 5:44:19 PM)

There are a lot of different types of scenarios here that you can play. It is not just a WWII game. I'm playing those games right now, but will be moving to modern WWIII scenarios soon.

Give it a try, it is very enjoyable...

All the best,



wodin -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/11/2018 7:53:53 PM)

No harder than buying into new with any release. You have to start somewhere and best with the latest version as its the same learning curve you go through no matter which release.



NickD -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/11/2018 9:42:34 PM)

The interface is pretty much the same as TOAW3, though with some improvements.

I find TOAW much easier to get into than most wargames of this genre, and its ability to cover something like 150 years of warfare in a sensible and accurate way is a real bonus - it leads to lots of variability in scenarios and gameplay.



Fred98 -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/12/2018 9:35:24 AM)

I heard that TOAW 1 and TOAW 2 had a good reputation among wargamers. When TOAW 3 came out I got it.

It is very different to any other wargame so I was unable to get into it. Anyhow I was playing other wargames by PBEM at the time.

Then the opponents ran out. Soon after TAOW 4 was announced.

I decided to learn TOAW 3 as training for when TOAW 4 was released. Once again I just didn't "get it".

I got TOAW 4 just after release and I have tried and tried but I don't "get it".

.





snoopy100 -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/12/2018 10:51:22 AM)

I also stumble trough this Game,despite playing Wargames since the early 1980ies im having a though Time with this one. For now i keep muddling trough because i think there is a good Game in there.



Cabido -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/12/2018 5:59:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: snoopy100

I also stumble trough this Game,despite playing Wargames since the early 1980ies im having a though Time with this one. For now i keep muddling trough because i think there is a good Game in there.


There are board games around that are more difficult to play than TOAW. Yet, those games force the player to manage the whole turn, practicing the rules as one goes, i.e. they are more transparent. Computer games do the work for you, which is nice, but then people tend to just ignore the details and results begin to seem arbitrary.

Keep going, but pay attention to the fact that the game begins to be rewarding when you begin to understand what is going on. If you just look at raw counter numbers and movement allowances and push counters around, then it is better to play a simpler game (under the hood), in which, at least, results you will be predictable and your planned strategy will make sense.

I suggest you play simple scenarios like Kasserine and Arracourt SLOWLY, consulting the manual after each interaction an trying to understand which variables were in play. The effects of some variables will only show up in some scenarios. I, for instance, ignored the huge effect density can play in losses and movement until I tried the japanese Singapore invasion scenario, where high density is unavoidable. It isn't a pleasant surprise not to be able to move your units to reinforce an hex because of movement penalties.



hingram -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/14/2018 6:30:44 PM)

One thing to keep in mind. If you do Saves, you have the ability to go back and try different things. You learn what doesn't work pretty quickly.
For instance, I found out that if you try to move an invasion force around Italy, make sure you don't pass too closely to a port on the way. The ship will dump the contents in that port. Then you have to wait a turn to embark again. I was also moving planes too close to the front and they were getting hammered. As your front moves up, so should your fighters and small bombers because they have a short range. But airfields have a stacking limit.
Don't try to win. Focus on things like learning how supply works and how if affects play.

The Italy map is pretty good because you don't have to wander all over the map. Everything is compact. You can do invasions and parachute drops to see what happens.



michaelspotts -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/14/2018 7:07:35 PM)

I hope the original poster got the encouragement and aid I did by reading all these kind hearted posts from such good people.

I have had game and manual sitting here long enough! Thanks very much you fine folks!

Michael



RichG -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/14/2018 7:19:21 PM)

This youtube playthrough by DasTactic of the early North Africa Campaign I found to be a great help in getting my head around this game. He really takes his time to expain what's going on in an understandable fashion without too much detail to overwhelm (which I often get with grognard tutorials).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9MJTMYfdRk&list=PLGB6RkFB7ZmPAfP98DoSPh1IuO0J_c_a8



TheTom -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/27/2018 9:10:56 AM)

There's more than just the difficulties in understanding the game mechanics. There's also the language problem. If you are no native english speaking gamer, you'll have to struggle with the game mechanics and the foreign language.
Not just the manual. Written tutorials are tough enough, but you can look up the words you don't understand. Not perfect, takes a lot of time and with each looked-up word a bit of motivation goes down the drain. But video tutorials are even harder. You don't just have to follow what's happening on the screen, you'll also have to stay very concenrated on what's spoken. Hard to look up words you don't know how to be spelled, and while trying to understand what the last sentence meant makes you lose track of what's happening on the screen.

Yup, that's nothing you can blame matrix for. But at least ingame and manual translations into some popular languages, like italian, german, french and spanish should be possible.

I tried to get into TOAW3 a long time ago, but without translated manual I soon lost all my motivation. I would really like to start new with TOAW4, but without those translations it's just a waste of money.



Lobster -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/27/2018 2:31:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTom

There's more than just the difficulties in understanding the game mechanics. There's also the language problem. If you are no native english speaking gamer, you'll have to struggle with the game mechanics and the foreign language.
Not just the manual. Written tutorials are tough enough, but you can look up the words you don't understand. Not perfect, takes a lot of time and with each looked-up word a bit of motivation goes down the drain. But video tutorials are even harder. You don't just have to follow what's happening on the screen, you'll also have to stay very concenrated on what's spoken. Hard to look up words you don't know how to be spelled, and while trying to understand what the last sentence meant makes you lose track of what's happening on the screen.

Yup, that's nothing you can blame matrix for. But at least ingame and manual translations into some popular languages, like italian, german, french and spanish should be possible.

I tried to get into TOAW3 a long time ago, but without translated manual I soon lost all my motivation. I would really like to start new with TOAW4, but without those translations it's just a waste of money.


Hi, I'm not Lobster, I'm his wife. He hurt his neck and back in a fall on ice a while ago and is barred from the computer so I've done his reading and typing for him since. But I have to comment on this on my own.

If any person really wants to translate a PDF document it is not that difficult. Simply save as a different document type and run that through a translator. A small amount of searching the internet will show you how to do it and it is all free. [;)]



TheTom -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/27/2018 6:46:18 PM)

Aw, c'mon. You can't be serious. You cannot really expect a halfway decent translation from an automatic translator. That is just not possible. Thanks for the tip, though.



hingram -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/28/2018 7:51:03 PM)

One really good thing about the game:

If your power is off for 5 days(looks like 6 days soon), you can play the game on a laptop you charge at work every day. It's been my sole amusement at night.



Oberst_Klink -> RE: How Accessible is This for Someone with No TOAW Experience? (3/29/2018 2:47:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTom

Aw, c'mon. You can't be serious. You cannot really expect a halfway decent translation from an automatic translator. That is just not possible. Thanks for the tip, though.

They did improve mind you, die Übersetzungsprogramme. Trust me, I know.

Klink, Oberst



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