Im really confused about fleets and automation (Full Version)

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Fjoelsvider -> Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/18/2018 10:05:24 PM)

i recently picked up dwu and got into it the last week, and right now im doing my first real playthrough

i have everything on manual control and just put stuff on automation if i decide i dont want to deal with it.
so far i only put my explorers on automated

now i created a fleet of 10 ships that i intended to be my defenders against pirate raids (because i cancelled the protection agreements). and instead of finding the single pirate ship everytime, and right clicking it, i thought id automate my fleet

i set its homeplanet to my capital, put it on defend, and the range on sector and then hit the automate button for the fleet.

shortly after pirates were raiding a mining station on the moon of my capital, so really really close, but the fleet didnt move...

i then tested with the editor and spawned different things 8thought its maybe just pirates) but they simpyl dont engage hostile ships.


im sure im just doing somethign wrong, but i just cant figure out what. any help would be greatly appreciated

edit: here is what they are doing: just sit on top of my homeplanet. and when i do manually send them out, and repeat the automation stuff they all rush at the spaceport to refuel, but aftert hat just sit around again



Retreat1970 -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/19/2018 1:29:14 AM)

One thing is that fleet posturing doesn't work against pirates, but they should have attacked anything in the same system anyways which leads me to believe your default engagement stances in the game options are incorrect.



Fjoelsvider -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/19/2018 7:04:47 AM)

i switched them all to attack system targets and now they attack enemy ships on sight. thank you very much!

to be completely honest here though: i have no idea which specific setting i needed to change, nor do i understand what they do. i gave the fleet the order to attack enemies sectorwide, what does the "engage system targets" setting do?! O.o


edit: after some light testing im guessing its the "other" stance setting that matters, but i really dont understand the meaning of the setting really :/

edit2: after some more testing i have gotten my fleet to actually engage even pirates in nearby systems, however they take forever to react, is that something i can change?



RemoteLeg -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/19/2018 1:32:04 PM)

Here's a video I did about automating fleets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs9H2DLd5V8&list=PLK2bfr2o2ZkW3OcP3kd-ypVVfLtaT9Y81&index=21

You might find it helpful.



Fjoelsvider -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/19/2018 3:39:21 PM)

i think im managing now, i got colonial defense fleets for every colony set up to defend in a sector range, they attack pirates, so thats nice. i have a fleet to attack things (still in the process of figuring out how to best use attack stance but not hopelessly stuck like before).

thanks for the help mate

ps: holy **** this game gets busy once you are past a certain point, time to turn on some major automation :D and maybe start a new game in a smaller galaxy >_>



Retreat1970 -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/19/2018 7:18:49 PM)

quote:

after some more testing i have gotten my fleet to actually engage even pirates in nearby systems, however they take forever to react, is that something i can change?


No. Postured (auto) fleets do not react to pirates inbound. They will react to things under attack by pirates though. Of course by then it's too late usually. The reasoning is, you are never at war with a pirate. You have protection or you don't. Posturing is a war stance.



Fjoelsvider -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/19/2018 8:43:54 PM)

whats the preferred way to handle pirates usually? do you just build a bunch of automated non-fleeted ships? manually attack every pirate raider? post defense fleets at every valuable station/base/planet?

im considering ramping up the weapons on my gas mining stations primarily and add some staying power to stuff like resorts and ore mining stations, but i dont know if thats strategically viable, mostly because i dont have enough experience with the game yet




Retreat1970 -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/20/2018 3:11:20 PM)

Best way? Take out their base. After pre-warp I usually ignore them. It sounds strange but if they take out a mine, who cares? I'll build another. Remember you can ask for a protection treaty at any time. You can cancel one at any time too.



Fjoelsvider -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/20/2018 3:32:47 PM)

fair enough i guess.

the perfectionist in me is just screaming in terror at the thought oft letting those filthy pirates touch my bases :D



Uncle Lumpy -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/20/2018 5:27:09 PM)

Welcome to the game Fjoelsvider. I'm not sure there's any preferred way to deal with pirates or anything else in DW. [:)] I agree with Retreat about rebuilding destroyed mines, and hunting down pirate bases and construction ships (in my part of the galaxy the only good pirate is a dead pirate). I do minimally arm my mines. One long range weapon (torpedo or missile) and one short range (beam, gravity or ion). Just enough to discourage. If the mine is not in one of my colony systems (where I always have a defensive fleet), and is a rather vital resource (fuel or super luxury), I would probably assign a frigate or destroyer to patrol it. In some cases I've even assigned a small defensive fleet (three frigates or destroyers), using the mine as the fleet's home base.



Fjoelsvider -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/20/2018 8:49:02 PM)

hi there and thanks ^-^ i guess i will decide on what feels best for me when i get there heh


im coming up with more and more questions about the game, and dont know where to put them exactly, is it ok if i just keep appending them here?

for example just now i was reading the "economy demystified" thread (found through guide to guides mk2) and it says when a resort location has no scenery bonus the resort base will be unprofitable, is that really correct? that kind of goes against what a "bonus" is O.o

can i just scrap my resorts at some places? i have only ever built them at spots that are listed on the quick access menu on the left side 8forgot what the exact tab name is, its right under research bonus locations)



Retreat1970 -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/21/2018 1:26:20 AM)

Honestly searching would be your best bet. Everything about the game has been posted I think. Most everyone is gone now, except for the lurkers.



Hattori Hanzo -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/21/2018 2:35:30 AM)

Fjoelsvider, you can continue to post here, we will help at our best [:)]

ps: yes, you can scrap your unwanted resort stations - you can find them in the list: F11 and then Resort Base



Fjoelsvider -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/22/2018 12:16:59 PM)

ok for now i admit defeat against the pirates ^^

its not like i cant deal with them militarily, its just a huge hassle. ive built a bunch of small-ish escorts with like 90 firepower and just put them all on automatic without being in a fleet. and they respond reasonably fast to raids, but there are just too many damn raids.

especially this one pirate faciton, as soon as i cancel my protection agreement im being raided all over the place, resort bases, constructors, colonies, everythign that hasnt big guns attached.
and i dont want to add a massive amount of guns to every design i have, feels weird if resort bases are 90% reactors to power the dozen weapons >_>


if i kill a pirate base do all their ships disappear or do i still have to mop up afterwards?


also do people usualyl cancel protection fast or late? cause i dunno which would be better



RogerBacon -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/22/2018 1:57:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fjoelsvider


if i kill a pirate base do all their ships disappear or do i still have to mop up afterwards?


Yes. Sometimes they join you!



Retreat1970 -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/22/2018 3:41:25 PM)

quote:

i admit defeat against the pirates


Pirates fly in, ask for agreement. Pirates fly out, cancel.

It's gamey, but it will work until you have more experience.



Bingeling -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/22/2018 4:08:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fjoelsvider

ok for now i admit defeat against the pirates ^^

its not like i cant deal with them militarily, its just a huge hassle. ive built a bunch of small-ish escorts with like 90 firepower and just put them all on automatic without being in a fleet. and they respond reasonably fast to raids, but there are just too many damn raids.

If they have no base close to you, they won't raid you.

Bust all bases that you see (at least if you have seen them attack you). If you are attacked, and you know of no base, watch their exit, they probably jump straight for their base. This is easier with long range scanners, but if you have those, it is easy anyways... Then realize that all pirate bases are on a fuel source, so go to galaxy map, show resource (caslon/hydrogen), in the direction where they were heading, and you know your possible targets. Just send some kind of ship to each of those systems (you can queue a refuel order to make them head out of a possibly pirate infested system as soon as possible).

That pirates live on fuel sources is yet another reason to put mines on every single one of them.

And if all else fails, try to steal their galaxy (I believe) or operations map (works but is temporary), and they reveal all their secrets. But to do this, you need to know which group to hunt, so take notes of pirates raiding you.



Fjoelsvider -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/22/2018 4:23:40 PM)

all good suggestions, where applicable i will try.

however: i just destroyed a particular pirate factions base in a fairly close system (fleets stationed at homeworld with the sector posture still cover the system)
so their base is destroyed, however that system is still unsecure, there are still a bunch of ships there all the time, attacking everything coming through.
i keep cleaning them up, and they come back, and automated fleets/ships simply dont seem to care about them at all (if they attack bases elsewhere my ships come to their aid, just not there for some reason)

i feel like i simply _have_ to equip all my constructors and _all_ base designs with weapons, which i dont want, because i simply dont understand how to manage those pirates.

and my fleets are more than strong enough, i just dont know how to not spend hours micromanaging single ships to deal with them (if i patroled the three stations in that system manually id forget about those ships, and when i retrofit them id forget where they were before, all this slightly annoying microing)


is there really no automated way to make a group of ships simply hunt after pirates on their own (dont even care if they dont get there in time sometimes, i just want like 10 ships to actually care about pirates ^^)



Bingeling -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/22/2018 8:46:29 PM)

I do not play with automated military ships, so I am no expert on that, but I do not believe you can make them behave well. And the AI sucks at handling pirates.

The ships are probably parked there since the battled that busted the spaceport, and possibly also includes ships that was on their way when the base was busted. Now they are stuck there with nothing better to do. Many of them could be out of fuel too.

My recipe above will work if

- The difficulty is not on a very high level
- The player has some experience
- Research is very expensive, and pre-warp is enabled to help the pirates
- There are lots of pirates starting nearby
- There are many independent colonies to further feed the pirates
- The only pirate deal ever is the one needed at the very start to get a spaceport built. Which is cancelled when the spaceport is complete.
- Military ships and their management (including building) is very manual.
- No special designs needed, AI designs work just fine.

And apart from upping difficulty to Extreme, you can't help pirates much more than that.

Basically, survive until you got enough ships to bust a pirate spaceport. Then bust them all.

The key is to not start new colonies except for a very juicy prospect. And mines in colony systems will be busted so do not bother except in the capital system, but mines outside of those can survive (as the pirates does not know about them). It helps to have a nice mine in the capital system that the pirates loves to bust, and that you can defend and rebuild. It keeps them busy. You can even have other mines that will be left alone in this case as the "attacked" mine is judged as more valuable and a better target. Keep your ships in the capital system to hunt down any visiting pirates (or try to).

The reason why mines in a colony system will not survive, is that pirates will raid the colony, and then they will spot the mine and destroy it. But they do not visit "random systems". If a pirate stumbles across your mining system (an exploration ship, a construction ship, their resupply ship...), you must allow them to destroy all mines before rebuilding. They must have last info as "this system is empty".



Fjoelsvider -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/24/2018 1:24:53 PM)

alright, i think im getting the hang of this. really strongly fortified bases help a lot, even tho i dont like it much to be fair, but it seems pirates dont even try attacking when the bases are strong. probably helped that i put pirates on very few and very weak.

i keep realizing mistakes i make (like using way too few explorers ^^ and messy research priorities). but at least i seem to have the pirate issue under control. menaing they are still around but dont spam me with "xyz is under attack" popups >_>

however i found this pirate station in some nebula, it has 800 firepower which is pretty darn beefy for a single base, and has huge amounts of shields and is extremely tanky. my entire ~8k fleet cant kill it. i was wondering what that is about and if thats normal.



Uncle Lumpy -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/24/2018 5:01:06 PM)

It seems about right a for a pirate base in the early game. I've seen anywhere from "none" up to 1200 fire power on a medium spaceport. Firepower is not the only consideration, shield strength matters, too. My strategy with pirates (and everyone else, too) is to attack them from long distance. The mod I'm playing has some pretty powerful long range missiles. I set my Fleet Postures to Stand Off for both weaker and stronger opponents, the missiles are the only weapon on my ships. Then I don't immediately Attack the pirate base, I Move to the star center instead. If there are any pirate mining stations in system, I go after them first. That tends to draw any pirate ships to you and away from their base. That way you can deal with them without having to fight the base at the same time. Once their ships are destroyed I can attack the base from long range-typically well outside of the range of any weapons they have. My fleet of 1260 fire power can whittle down and destroy even a medium spaceport with 4000 strength shields in six or seven salvos. Jolly good fun! [:D]



Bingeling -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/24/2018 5:38:11 PM)

I have not played for a long time, but for my first pirate assault with stock AI designed ships, I guess I will send them all over once I have some 40 assorted frigates and destroyers.




Fjoelsvider -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/25/2018 8:29:58 PM)

i think it was some legendary pirate base (having read about them for the first time now, it certainly was a lot different than any other pirate base, had hyper deny and was unkillable and everything.


one more questions tho: do you guys usually build resort bases? i feel like they are pointless when there are pirates around, considering they dont make much money, and weaponizing them eats pretty much all the money they do make in maintenance




Uncle Lumpy -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/26/2018 10:27:54 PM)

Resort bases do make money. You have to build them at sites with Scenic value and close to populated areas of the galaxy (not necessarily in your own territory). In the early game, before pirates are under control, I would only build one if it was actually located in one of my colony systems where I already had a defensive fleet. I only place enough fire power on them to deter regardless where I place them.



Fjoelsvider -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/28/2018 4:25:06 PM)

ok yet again a pirate problem: one of my colonies is being attacked by pirates, but i have a protection agreement with them ...

i thought thats why i pay them so much money, so they leave me alone O_o



stuart3 -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/28/2018 8:53:28 PM)

It happens sometimes. Check your status with that pirate faction in the Open Diplomacy Screen (F5). You will almost certainly find that you no longer have a protection agreement with them. They will have cancelled it without telling you so that they could attack you without warning. Pirates can be unprincipled scoundrels. [:(]



Fjoelsvider -> RE: Im really confused about fleets and automation (3/28/2018 9:39:11 PM)

i did check before i posted, still says i have a protection agreement with them

if it hadnt said that i would have assumed its just a faction i missed and moved on ^^



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