A quick question about FOW (Full Version)

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Major SNAFU_M -> A quick question about FOW (4/7/2018 2:47:57 PM)

Hi all,

What FOW settings do you use against the AI? What is best for learning. I prefer to learn more ‘hard-core’ to avoid developing habits that then have to be broken when changing things to the ‘normal’.

SO I am new to this title, and I may being reading the user guide (great stuff, many thanks) and the manual.

I am not sure that I really understand the FOW settings, so I wanted to state what I believe and see if my understanding is correct.

FOW off means you know everything about every enemy unit all of the time. Location, type, strength, composition, etc.

FOW means you know something about most units (because they still seem to appear on the map form the get-go) recon is less about finding units, and mostly about finding out details about units. THis additional information then increasing the effectiveness of your planning and attacks.

FOW with movement FOW means that automatically plotted movements will be created in areas where you have reasonable intelligence to plot the moves with confidence?

And this only affects human players? The AI opponent is always playing with FOW off, regardless of the settings?

Regards,



cfulbright -> RE: A quick question about FOW (4/7/2018 3:40:58 PM)

As far as I know, AI will suffer from FOW if you turn it on for it.

FOW with movement means you can't see how far your unit can move or what it will run into except for the known hexes around it.

Best way to enforce your good habits is to set up your human v. AI games as a PBEM game, turn on FOW for both sides, and use blanks as the password. That way you can't turn FOW on and off as you play.

Cary



GeneralDad -> RE: A quick question about FOW (4/7/2018 3:53:32 PM)

I play with FOW but not movement FOW. I found it too tiresome to have to click the units forward one hex at a time in movement FOW when there was a breakout or Axis pullback situation. I guess I would say that movement FOW exceeded my desire for micro-management of the game.

I feel like the FOW affects the AI since when it does not know where things are it can be surprised. But, only an expert player or the devs can answer your question as to whether FOW is followed by the AI.

FOW often means that your only scouts are your air recon units. The Americans have some Armored Cav and the Allies have other small motorized units but the axis seems short on these. A panzer division just breaks down into 3 roughly equal kampfgruppes, there is no spin off of the recon battalion (possibly reinforced) as could/would have been done historically. The same is true for other divisions that have significant recon elements. Another game issue is that there appear to be no special rules for recon units – so they would retreat rather than be slaughtered by heavier stuff if left exposed on a recon mission.

I'd also like to get some intelligence from French partisans from time to time and perhaps other spies but I have no idea how the game really handles this stuff.

This is a game with awesome historical research and generally great game play. FOW is its own challenge – how much information to show the player to make the game feel more historical but still be a playable game. I chose FOW without movement FOW for my settings, mainly to keep the game more playable but still have a feel for not knowing everything.

GeneralDad



Major SNAFU_M -> RE: A quick question about FOW (4/7/2018 4:13:06 PM)

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies.

I am trying to understand this sentence from 13.2 in the manual.:

“Note that computer players are not affected by fow, however, the AI does have the same Dl restrictions as human players”

I read this to mean that regardless of the FOW settings, the AI always knows exactly where all OPFOR units are, but the AI still must ‘recon’ to know the details about each unit and thus increase the effectiveness of its attacks. But I may be mistaken.

If I am correct, why would a player want to play at a disadvantage where your opponent knows where all of your units are, but you do not?


General Dad: thanks for explaining your thoughts on movement FOW.



loki100 -> RE: A quick question about FOW (4/7/2018 4:49:57 PM)

Theres a complication between FOW (ie knowing where the units are on the map) and the impact of detection levels on combat. If you attack with a low detection level you can still get some adverse combat results and most likely will suffer higher losses.

Equally if you bomb with FoW off the effectiveness of a given mission is still tied to the recon/detection level of the target.

So even with FOW off, you need to do recon missions etc.



Major SNAFU_M -> RE: A quick question about FOW (4/7/2018 5:21:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Theres a complication between FOW (ie knowing where the units are on the map) and the impact of detection levels on combat. If you attack with a low detection level you can still get some adverse combat results and most likely will suffer higher losses.

Equally if you bomb with FoW off the effectiveness of a given mission is still tied to the recon/detection level of the target.

So even with FOW off, you need to do recon missions etc.



Many thanks. So why would you ever turn FOW one then, just to increase the amount of ‘work’ to be done to reach a certain level of DI? Or is the same level of DI harder to obtain, given equal effort, with FOW on?

Related, I noticed on another post you were advising General Dad to perform small amphib ops in Italy. If the AI is not affected by FOW, then how can you ever ‘surprise’ the AI with such a move?

No criticism meant on the comments or game. As I play through husky a few times I am just trying to figure out what settings I will use to start a larger scenario and what affect these settings will have on the game play. And this FOW is the one least clear to me.




loki100 -> RE: A quick question about FOW (4/7/2018 7:02:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Major SNAFU_M


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Theres a complication between FOW (ie knowing where the units are on the map) and the impact of detection levels on combat. If you attack with a low detection level you can still get some adverse combat results and most likely will suffer higher losses.

Equally if you bomb with FoW off the effectiveness of a given mission is still tied to the recon/detection level of the target.

So even with FOW off, you need to do recon missions etc.



Many thanks. So why would you ever turn FOW one then, just to increase the amount of ‘work’ to be done to reach a certain level of DI? Or is the same level of DI harder to obtain, given equal effort, with FOW on?

Related, I noticed on another post you were advising General Dad to perform small amphib ops in Italy. If the AI is not affected by FOW, then how can you ever ‘surprise’ the AI with such a move?

No criticism meant on the comments or game. As I play through husky a few times I am just trying to figure out what settings I will use to start a larger scenario and what affect these settings will have on the game play. And this FOW is the one least clear to me.




FOW off basically allows you an overview of your opponents full deployment - where their reserves are, where they are building defensive lines and also ensures you see exactly what bombing damage you have done. FOW on denies you this and instead hex based detection levels (DL) will give you a degree of knowledge of all that info.

But in either case, actual detection level feeds into the combat model, so you as a player know that hex is occupied by a PzrGr division (FOW off) but your advancing troops are still vulnerable to combat surprises if they attack with a low DL. Or you as a player know that factory in Hannover is undamaged (FOW off) but your bombers still need tactical knowledge (ie recon) to lead them to the target.

So I'd say play with FOW, it probably gives a more realistic game. Movement FOW, as General Dad notes is more nuanced - n effect its a realism/playablity trade off and the reality of WiTW is you never get the potentially wide sweeping moves that can occur on the Eastern Front.

DL is purely a function of recon in both models - you get DL by front line contact and by air recon.

My understanding is the AI plays by the rules you set for FOW, it gets a few other hidden helps - the one that is hardest to accept is around slipping out of encirclement (the logic is the AI is more vulnerable to pocketing than a player ever will be so this balances). So its not going to know that SAS brigade sat in Bari is plotting an invasion and its certainly not going to know where you plan to land it.

I think the Axis AI in WiTW is pretty good. It helps that it is essentially on the defensive and that the front is short (even in France it usually only 10-15 hexes of actual combat frontage). It will make mistakes, but in general this is my favourite vs AI game as I don't feel I have to restrain myself in the search for a realistic game.



Major SNAFU_M -> RE: A quick question about FOW (4/7/2018 7:28:36 PM)

Hi Loki100,

Many thanks for the additional explanation. I get the concept now.

(Also - thanks for the many AARs you have written, both for this and the AGEOD games. I own both and yours are always, educational, and entertaining).

Regards,

SNAFU



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