Turn Off Spec Op Fire? (Full Version)

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Del -> Turn Off Spec Op Fire? (6/7/2001 5:59:00 PM)

Would it be possible to make a way for a player to turn off the special op fire. IMO it fairly ruins the game by allowing shots over and above what is possible. If charging trucks filled with infantry out to kill is a problem simply do not allow them to unload after the vehicle starts moving. Better that then this ridiculous machine gun cannons.



Tom Terror -> (6/7/2001 8:59:00 PM)

Hey Del, there should be an option to toggle it off in the preference screen. Try this.



Tom Terror -> (6/7/2001 9:07:00 PM)

Hey Del, there should be an option to toggle it off in the preference screen. Try this.



Paul Vebber -> (6/7/2001 11:22:00 PM)

No that is opfire confirm. Special opfire is a part of the game now. IT does not allow you to get "more shots than you are supposed to" - a Tank or AT gun could easily fire 6-10 rounds per minute at a "cooperative target" so in a "several minute" long turn 20 shots is well within the realm of the physically possible. What it represents is the fact that you do not get the OPPORTUNITY to fire those shots (because the enemy is not magically "frozen" during your turn as the game makes it appear) unless the enemy allows it. So if the enemy moves where you can see him or fires at you then the odds are better that you will shoot back. Though the more you "rush" the less effective those shots are (due to suppression being added if you special opfire a lot). THe only thing "ruined" by special opfire is poor tactics! There is a reason forces stood off a ways to engage, most players want to get up close and personal with the enmy far too much, and in piecemeal fashion. If you feed your troops incrementally into a meat grinder you will pay the price. The "game" tactics of using a couple of units to "soak off" all the defenders fire and then waltze up to it unmolested were ridiculous. In close terrain it took a substantial numerical advantage 3 or 5 to one, to be successful. That is why urban and close terrainis so tough, you need to get a massed advantage hile concealing teh fact you are doing it from the enemy. Most people want their platoon to move up shoot across the street at the enemy platoon and "win". Artillery preperation, massing out of sight a whole company, then a massed assault is the way to get the job done. Most players are used to more "infiltration" style tactics using soak offs to engage and defeat individual defending squads. That can happen if you have a large expereice differential, but in the main, is a prescription to get your butt kicked and 9 times out of 10 you will. [ June 07, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]



TheChin -> (6/8/2001 3:24:00 AM)

I totally agree Paul. I too was frustrated at first with the new system. I realised that the solution was changing tactics, not trying to find ways to change the game to fit my tactics. I don't think this destroys tactics at all, as some have claimed. I think it has breathed new life into the tactical situation in Steel Panthers. I think it's time for everyone to change their formula and learn a new way to play.



Del -> (6/8/2001 6:04:00 PM)

'Several minutes'. I have been doing allot of reading in different forums of late and this phrase seems to be well used. If a turn is several minutes with no set time why are my units allowed only so many movement points? It would appear there is a contradiction of time and motion. You are allowed your opinion. Mine is that there should be an upper limit to the number of times a unit can fire. There seems to be none regardless of tactics used. Of course I have no way to change the way the game plays. If the special op fire used to be an optional switch it should be returned with an incremental button the same as is given for artillery. Since this is a turn based game feeding units 'piecemeal' is not an option. You can use only one unit at a time regardless of the tactics you use. And using units to 'soak off' an enemies fire is a time tested and often used tactic in all armies. One or more units provide 'covering' fire while others advance, hopefully out of sight of an enemy who is busy firing at the covering unit that is trying to keep the enemies heads down. This is a turn based game and trying to prevent someone from using what someone else perceives to be 'bad tactics' by adding an arbitrary routine is, in my opinion, ruining what could have been an even better game. Sorry to be beating a dead horse.



Lucky Kaa -> (6/9/2001 12:56:00 AM)

Let's look at how this would happen in real life. Case 1: If my recon units move forward ahead of all my other units, they will take fire. Lets say they all die. Now they are all dead, and THEN the rest of my units come out of cover. What will happen? The defender, who have no current targets, will start firing at your units. Case 2: All of my units move from cover at the same time. What will happen? The defender will pick out priority targets first, then move on to less important targets. This means an AT gun won't be shooting 2-man recon teams while panthers roll along right behind them. Under the previous (non-spec-opfire) paradigm, I'd move my recon units out, get them killed while expending all of my opponents opfire, then move my valuable assets out. This is totally incompatible with how life really works. If you want the defenders not to fire at you while you are moving, you have people lay down covering fire for you. This involves shooting at things. Not being shot at. You have artillery strikes, air strikes, you use machine guns to direct-fire hexes you think the enemy is in. This increases a units suppression, reducing the chance he will fire at you. People generally don't like to shoot when they themselves are being shot at. Moving recon units to draw fire does not count as 'covering'. Is the current solution the best there is? No. There will be times when some units get a seemingly ridiculous amount of opfire. But it is, in my opinion, far better than the previous incarnation.



Del -> (6/9/2001 5:30:00 AM)

If your AT guns are properly deployed they will have infantry to take care of any infantry and the AT guns will concentrate on the tanks. What is your point? Covering fire is a good idea. The unfortunate thing is that pinned units still get special op fires over and above their alloted rof. Even retreating units are given special op fire. Another unfortunate thing that forces 'bad tactics' on a player are the extremely short games given players in random battle encounters. Ten turns does not exactly encourage 'good tactics'. I am also learning to become an SPWaW lawyer and will lay out contractual type challenges to force players to use a realistic force mix. All the flampanzers in Europe, or all the 150mm guns on the West Front or a battalion of 88s also forces 'bad tactics' on a player. In any event, I am not a dentist so pulling teeth to achieve a result is not my forte. I leave this subject a defeated player.



Joe Osborne -> (6/9/2001 5:43:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: IT does not allow you to get "more shots than you are supposed to" - a Tank or AT gun could easily fire 6-10 rounds per minute at a "cooperative target" so in a "several minute" long turn 20 shots is well within the realm of the physically possible. [ June 07, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]
If this is truly the case and a turn (at least according to the old SP scale) is 6 minutes that totals 36 to 60 shots per turn. If this is the case then why do we receive only 3-5 shots per turn for most tanks AT? I do understand that you're talking about a "cooperative" target. But if ROF's are indeed in that range, heck, let's half em....to averaging 18 to 30 shots.....How do we end up with 3-5? It just doesn't add up......... OK guys...I must be missing something here.... Joe O.



Del -> (6/9/2001 6:30:00 AM)

Just got my paws on an old SP2 manual. They are the originators of the 'several minutes' phrase. Given there is a set number of movement points a turn should be a set amount of time. But this is not as important as the number of shots a unit can make in several minutes. If several minutes is six as Joe suggested then a rifle company should have a bunch more shots than they are given. If this is true then the special op fire isn't really special but simply the number of shots a unit could make anyway if anything is going to make any logical sense. Please, please, please use some logic when making the Combat Leader game instead of throwing in arbitrary routines to try and even things up or to try and keep people from using 'bad tactics'.



Paul Vebber -> (6/9/2001 9:27:00 AM)

The original SP scale is "several minutes" "6 to 30" minutes was the SP 3 scale. When we modify a rather rigidly coded game we are stuck using the conventions they use. SPecial opfire was in SP3 (but few realize this as it was never identified as such) its not a "kludge" we added to the game! Go back and read my threads on 'IGO_HUGO" design philosphy and you will understand the abstractions involved. The "set number of movement pioints" is based on an "average" and that number of movement points can get reduced by being spotted or shooting or gettin g shot at so there is NOT a set number of MPs per turn. There is a MAX but it can change based on what happens. Once more for possible penetration... A "turn" in an IGO-HUGO game is a PAIR of player turns. In that PAIR of player turns you have two situations: 1) YOUR turn representing situations when you have "tactical control" over the engagement and the enmey is artificially "FROZEN" allowing you a period (representing a small portion of the overall turn timeframe) where your can "pick your shots". There is not necessarily any real relationship between the order of execution and the order things occur in real life. Since each individual unit can sequentially do a minute or two of activity, in sequence, a scenario with 400 units could be only accomplishable "as executed" over several hours, so there is no literal "sequence of events". This is maybe a minute or minute and a half of the 3-5 minutes in a turn. 2) The other guys turn represents time that you are on the receiving end of "tactical control". The number of enemy units you can engage is based not on your rate of fire (though it plays role - in 3-5 minutes you could shoot your wad in a handful of turns or less...) but on how cooperative the enemy is at allow you to target them. If the enemy sits and does nothing, you have no shot opportunities outside those represented by your smaller time slice of "tactical control" in this case the turn has a couple minutes of "dead time" and represents the lower end like 3 minutes of real time. If the enemy is very active then that means the turn your troops are GIVEN shot opportunites by the enemy. At some point he gives you so many shot opportunites that your troops can get shaken by the amount of activeity and if special opfires too much will tend to get suppressed ("losing the bubble" and being unable to effectively deal witht he enemy activity.) If an infantry unit get 20 special opfires, its only becasue YOU ACTED IN SUCH A WAY TO ALLOW THEM. You provided a "target rich environment" and the enemy took advantage or it. Since there is no direct linear sequence of events, many of the things that occur in one order in the game are REALLY SIMULATANEOUS OR OCCURING IN A DIFFERNET ORDER. So the idea is the "set shots" you get are ones you can "force" becasue of your experience and tactical ability. But an enemy denying you shot opportunities will not let you get any more than that. If he shoots back or moves then opfire gives you more shot opportunites, speicial opfire accounts for the lack of linear sequnce and the fact that if the enemy is very active in a provocative way, then your unit will have the opportunity and impetus to use all that rate of fire that you talk about. The biggest fallicy in gaming is the "traditional" view that because a turn is "1 minute" that a unit should be able to accomplish what it theoretically could do in a minute...EVERY MINUTE... That is the game philosophy that is bankrupt! We are working on a system for the new game that jumps around from formation to formation for an activity segment that can allow a variable number of movement points and fires to be conducted before the "focus" of activity jumps to a different, or enemy unit. All based on initiative die rolls. Limited simultaneous movement and fires will be allowed. We will see how this option pans out.



Joe Osborne -> (6/9/2001 12:47:00 PM)

Sorry Paul, Yes, SP3 was 6 to thirty minutes, and the original SP manual says it's "several minutes" ....but my question still stands. If this "Special Op Fire" is "OK" because of this timing/ROF then why don't we receive an equivalent group of shots from our tanks and AT during the regular turn??? If a turn is "6 to 30 minutes" and the ROF is 6-10 per minute....then why isn't the standard load at least 36 to 180 shots per turn??? The math is not adding up...... ..and although I went to Catholic grammar school I will not accept "It's a mystery, my son" as the proper answer! :D God forbid...someone on ICQ just suggested we do this like the "Weakest Link" .... Not me...uh-uh.... :) But what do enquiring minds have to say about this? Joe Osborne



Paul Vebber -> (6/9/2001 1:45:00 PM)

Joe 0 reread the part baout how "your turn" and the enemy turns are described...its not easy to understand :eek: In your part of the turn you get a fixed amount based on your experience ROF and general good looks...that stays constant representing your ability to be in "tactical control" of the situation. You don't get more shots than that unless the enemy decided to take certain risks and expose himself performing actions in his turn. Remember in the "abstract scheme of things" the TWO PLAYER TURNS ARE OCCURING AT THE SAME TIME - its just we can't deal with them that way . We are working on a formation initiative system in Combat Leader that will address this problem by interleaving the player turns in some semblence of a time line. There is now way to know which events in a turn are supposed to be before another thing (except kills since they are immediately occuring) - IF you think it about the timelining issue for very long your head hurts...and I don't pretend to apologize for how SP3 figred ROF... :rolleyes: There is a post about it on the Combat Leader forum. [ June 09, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]



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