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Raverdave -> Question (6/2/2003 6:02:54 PM)

Ok...I am starting to warm to the idea of the Korsun Pocket...in part fueled by my recent reading of the "Fall of Berlin". But having looked at the Matrix screen shots....I am some what shocked to see that dice are shown on the screen! What the heck is that all about? If I want dice I'll play a board game!



Fred98 -> (6/2/2003 6:07:59 PM)

I played TAO2 and I look forward to this game - the succesor.

This will be a great game at the operational level.

Its true that the computer throws dice. The original game was meant to be a bridge between board games and computer games.

You must get it. And SSG is an Aussie company :)



Tbone3336 -> Regarding Dice (6/2/2003 6:31:12 PM)

I agree with Joe, as the dice are a means to get a result from the CRT and a bridge to old boardgames. I can tell you that it does not in anyway or form take away from the game at all and moreso, I found myself, in the first game, about to hit the attack resolution button staring at the dice hoping a six came up so I would get a retreat or win and then seeing a one come up and being totally bummed. By the way the CRT is very well laid out and creates many unique opportunities that alot of games that hide this info from the player loss out on IMO. While there is a chance that someone would not like this game or this style of game, I am willing to bet that if you enjoy Operational level wargames this game will have much more for you to like than dislike. :)



e_barkmann -> (6/2/2003 7:56:22 PM)

Hey there Raverdave!

[QUOTE]What the heck is that all about? If I want dice I'll play a board game![/QUOTE]

Difficult to explain, but this game has the most elegantly simple combat system around, and yet can be mind-buggeringly complex if you want it to be.

You will come to grips with it instantly, and it will then take you ages to master.

Personally I prefer an open combat resolution system, laid bare. Plenty of other games use magical, hidden ways of getting a result.

To each their own, but I sometimes struggle to see how many shades of "ooh, bad result!" and "Crikey!, knocked 'em for a six!" you really need in such a game system.

Depending on the number of steps involved in each combat, you're looking at up to 36 possible outcomes with each roll. And it's all transparent.

I really like that. The developer has given me the ability to make completely informed decisions about combat, no grey stuff. Cool.

AAR's for the un-initiated to get a better idea at : [URL=http://www.wargamer.com/wachtamrhein]Wacht am Rhein[/URL]

Cheers Chris



Capitaine -> (6/2/2003 8:13:10 PM)

I echo everyone here: The dice are a HUGE part of this system (in a very good way) and you'll always know why a certain result occurred. Also, as w/ any CRT, the "dice" are not what make it complex, or not. It is the CRT itself and it is much deeper than what dice may represent to you.

Believe me, this game system is far more rewarding, satisfying and complex than many other -- okay, ALL other -- similarly scaled games currently available. If you can master this game, you have done something. Look at the overall picture and not one small facet. See the dice... and LOVE them!! :cool:



e_barkmann -> (6/2/2003 8:29:44 PM)

In some ways, the KP random number generation system (hehe.. dice...) is presented in a way that for me validates the game as a true wargame.

I have played many other wargames out there and I sometimes get the feeling that the control is squarely in the hands of the developer, and I have a problem with that.

How many games have you played, when a new patch is released, that suddenly certain combat results don't seem to match up with previous experiences with the game? Did the developer screw up? Did he fudge some internal numbers to make up for something else?
Who knows?

Dice. Control. Lets me concentrate on the important issues of the game. And yes, it's a game - I tend to think some people think that the absence of dice makes a game more "realistic", or more sim-like. When you think about it, no, it's a game, isn't it - they had to randomly generate a number somehow, somewhere.

But some games are more up front about it than others.

Anyway enough of my ramblings :D

Cheers Chris



Huskalator -> (6/3/2003 8:07:55 AM)

I actually like it. It shows me what went wrong with my attack and why.

Notice I didn't say right. :(



Raverdave -> (6/3/2003 8:47:38 AM)

Thanks for the feed back guys....this game will be on my wish-list, but what with UV and WiTP where are I going to find the time?:(



Fallschirmjager -> (6/3/2003 9:09:41 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raverdave
[B]Thanks for the feed back guys....this game will be on my wish-list, but what with UV and WiTP where are I going to find the time?:( [/B][/QUOTE]

Raver

I know you like UV alot

There are "dice" in that game
Just going on behind the scenes

Any time a game needs a random number (like say a bomb hit in UV) it will use a random number generator withing a certain number set....which is essentially a dice
For some reason SSG decided to show the dice as a graphical extra

Id venture to say "Dice" are in prertty much every computer wargame ever created
Except they were in the backgroud and were represented as a few bits of date instead of pixels on a screen

I wouldnt let something this minor detract you from what promises to be an excellent game



Gregor_SSG -> (6/3/2003 2:50:14 PM)

All computer games use dice, we just show it. Why do we show it? We do so to help the player make decisions and better understand game outcomes.

Showing the dice roll explicitly shows the difference between an attack that failed because the odds were against it and an attack that failed because you were unlucky.

Making the dice six sided makes it easy for the human player to get info before making attacks. Is a 6:1 attack in the Woods good or not good? Just look up the ingame CRT and you'll see the exact position.

If we wanted to disadvantage the human player, we would make the dice roll out of 100, hide the raw result, and have a myriad of factors influence the result by arbitrary amounts (like +12%). This wouldn't bother the computer in the slightest but would make decision making much harder for the humans, especially those who weren't good at mental arithmetic.

In short, a displayed dice roll doesn't make Korsun pocket a boardgame, it just makes it a better game.

Gregor



Rob Gjessing -> (6/3/2003 3:43:45 PM)

Just jumping onto the end of this thread.. everythings been said and explained.. but I couldnt believe it took so many posts for us to acknowledge that every computer game out there uses Dice (the random factor)..

Just because its not displayed doesnt mean its not there.. I think the Dice in this series help you out so much in terms of decision making... as Gregor has mentioned.

Infact if there was a suggestion that it was going to be taken out.. I would jump up and down :) And I dont think my girlfriend would be very happy with the holes I would cause in the roof and the floors..

I like to know why an assault failed.. have a read of the AAR that Chris and I are playing [URL=http://www.wargamer.com/wachtamrhein/]http://www.wargamer.com/wachtamrhein/[/URL].. having the Dice shown in the game really does add to the tension and excitement.. "roll me a 6 baby!" and you get a "1".

I actually prefer not to refer to the results as a 1 or a 6, but rather the luck and the fortunes of war that is forever present in combat.. heck not being so sure that the war gods are on your side before you launch an attack is part of the thrill.

Would I go as far as to say that I now find war games boring without the Dice being up front.. heck no, but I am forever aware that they exist..

The results of the Dice are valuable feedback to a commander... a low roll is an indication that the defenders put up a herioic defence.. or that your local commander stuffed up.. I like to know that.. I like the feedback.

And .. ok [shuts up]..



BrubakerII -> (6/5/2003 1:38:09 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Merchant
[B].. and yet can be mind-buggeringly complex if you want it to be. [/B][/QUOTE]

Man you can say that again :eek:

This game is probably the most simplest the get into and complex to master I have on my hard drive. Just when I think I am the coolest commander on the net my email partners in crime seem to get the upper hand. I sometimes spend hours at work waiting to get home and see if I can make a change. What a top program.

Gregor nice to see you here - welcome - and the first question for you: Is it true that the random number generator ie dice - is truly random or is there a fix on? Why do the most critical rolls ALWAYS get a bum result? Is this a sign of bad generalship? Have I just answered my own question?

regards

Brubaker



Fred98 -> (6/5/2003 1:55:40 PM)

In TAO2, the first dice roll of any turn is almost always a 1.

For the US player most of the time and for the German player less often but still common.

Dunno if it was programmed this way.



Rob Gjessing -> (6/5/2003 2:26:46 PM)

Woo really? I would say thats just coincidental.. or is it murphys law? Just when you need a good result you get a poor one.. I never was lucky :)

So for anyone who beats me in any PBEM games.. remember you will have won because of luck .. it has/had nothing to do with my playing style.. :)



Duncan Maggs -> Die Die Die! (6/6/2003 3:27:25 AM)

Joe,

I have played a lot of TAO2 games and can't say I have noticed this "1" on the die roll phenomenon as either German or US player. Perhaps you've just had very bad luck!

In fact it is possible the German player may be favoured by the die initially. There was some discussion a while ago about whether a German attack with armour in it had a better chance of success on turn 1 (Leader X remark if I remember correctly).

What annoys me is when a crucial attack at 6-1 odds which has a 5/6 chance of a DR result "always" yields a 2 roll which is a D1 result!

Old Bill



HannoMeier -> (6/6/2003 4:33:07 PM)

Didn't notice the die roll streak.

The Ardennes Offensive was a great, great game. I will definitely buy Korsun Pocket.

One small wish: Please include the 64 turn "Bulge" campaign, where both sides could enjoy attack and defense phases.

Hanno



Rob Gjessing -> (6/6/2003 4:36:39 PM)

The version of TAO in Korsun Pocket that is shipping does not have the 64 turn scenario.. but.. there is a scenario editor included.. so.. you never know.. someone may port it..

The 32 turn version is well balanced though and there is good opportunity for both side to have a fight..



BrubakerII -> (6/6/2003 5:58:42 PM)

I think the 32 turn scenario (16 days) probably encompasses the best part of the campaign though it was nice though to play the US and have the crushing advantage in the longer game.



Rob Gjessing -> (6/6/2003 6:03:01 PM)

I dont think I ever finished the 64 turn game..



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