Do you think this is fun? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Tigers on the Hunt



Message

UP844 -> Do you think this is fun? (5/12/2018 8:51:58 PM)

The screen shows the final body count after a game of "Kurhaus Clash" played with the Germans at Very Hard level. It ended in a German Major Victory with a 15:1 loss ratio.

When I played the same scenario with the Americans, it ended in an American victory with a somewhat lower loss ratio (4:1).

Today I played "Aachen's Pall". As instructed, I first played with the Americans. At the end of the American turn #2 there was not a single German alive on the map: of course the game ended in an American Major victory. Then I switched sides: despite the presence of a second Sherman, the Americans lost both AFVs, never managed to cross the road to the building and never inflicted a single casualty on the Germans (which only suffered a Casualty Reduction during a Rally Phase).

I suppose the AI has read - and thoroughly absorbed - S.L.A. Marshall works about the use of firearms by men in combat [:D]

[image]local://upfiles/53779/597F4014F291409488359E9C319C40E9.jpg[/image]



rico21 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 3:36:00 AM)

You are the best player of TOTH.
Noone can do better results like you.
This is why, your advice is marginal and if you think do better, dare it.
We 're waiting yours scenarios.
Fun?



UP844 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 11:58:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

You are the best player of TOTH.
Noone can do better results like you.


I think I am a half-decent player, no more and no less. Having an opponent like the AI, which only takes about 20% of the fire opportunities it has, is a great help. In Kurhaus Clash AI infantry first moved in the open (and took some casualties), then didn't fire at all in the Advancing Fire Segment and was finally slaughtered in my own fire segment. I understand this can be really fun for some wannabe Joachim Peiper [:D].

As regards to nobody getting better results than me, I would like to know whether I am the only one to get such endless strings of Major Victories.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21
This is why, your advice is marginal and if you think do better, dare it.
We 're waiting yours scenarios.
Fun?


I meant no criticism to the scenarios: I just wanted to point out that if one gets a Major Victory whatever the side he plays, there is something wrong. I understand the AI will never be as smart as the dumbest human player, but it looks a bit strange that, given the same starting situation, the human player always gets much better results than the AI.

Even though I am not a prolific author, I already published two scenarios: a SL conversion (Buchholz Station) and a larger scenario (Casa Berardi) that I made from scratch, doing extensive research.
Unfortunately, they are both affected by the same issue (whichever side you play, you end up slaughtering the opponent). I am revising "Casa Berardi" to see if I can make it a bit more balanced.

As for other scenarios, I am working on a campaign game (actually, a three-day long scenario) representing the battle for Cecina:

http://www.752tank.com/cecina.html


This is the draft map, obtained from U.S. topographical maps of the area:



[image]local://upfiles/53779/B2503EC3BFDA420E8380BBB8C25F6FDD.jpg[/image]



slaphappypappy -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 12:33:20 PM)

I get Major victories most of the time. However I have to play some scenarios more than once to get it.
Try Rico's latest, Jackson's Fire, and tell me you get a Major American Victory and I will want details as I have not come close.
Impossible scenario in my mind.



Big Ivan -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 12:58:10 PM)

UP844 I hear you and whole heartedly agree!! [:D]

Whatever side I play in a scenario I usually get a major victory
by a large percentage of the time.

With that having been said I for one am looking for an A/I that is a murdering son-of-a-beehive and I just don't
see it in this game yet.[sm=sterb003.gif]



rico21 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 2:08:41 PM)

Ok, guys, here are some rico-rules:
1- Criticize the AI is criticize Peter, you do not have my permission to use my scenarios for this purpose.
2- To criticize the AI, you have my permission to use past and future scenarios of UP844 and Big Ivan.
3- In case of problems with these new rules please see this with my lawyer Slaphappypappy.



Big Ivan -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 2:36:10 PM)

That's funny rico21 [:D][:D][:D] I was under the impression that only Matrix can make rules as to what goes into a forum.

I'm making a statement about the game A/I and the game A/I only. Not anyone's scenario work. Think you missed something there.

Oh and I forgot to mention I win almost all the time with my scenarios too! Sorry I didn't mention that earlier.

Have a wonderful day Eric![:)]



UP844 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 2:49:05 PM)

Rico, I will gladly abide your rules, even though I believe all of use live in countries that allow the right of free speech.

I would like to point out that the issue can be easily proved by playing almost any scenario, starting from the very first tutorial to the Kursk campaign scenarios. As regards to the latter, I never managed to finish the third one, but the other always ended in a Major Victory for whatever side I played with. When I played "Psel River Bridgehead" with the Russians, I crossed the Bridge and went hunting German artillery (the only surviving German units) with SU-152s just to kill time until the scenario end.

Of course, there are scenarios that you cannot win, no matter how tough a player you are. The issue I pointed out - and that is confirmed by both slaphappypappy's and Big Ivan's posts - is that most times (i.e. not, always, but a significant number of times) you get a Major Victory regardless of the side you play.

I'm sorry you are taking it on a personal level but, as I previously stated, I did not intend to criticise any scenario or author. In my opinion, this is just a game mechanics issue. A big part of the losses the AI takes are due to the demise of broken units due to failure to rout: I understand that having the AI to be able to "think" about doing so is a very difficult - to say the least - undertaking. I do not see, however, the reason why the AI infantry units fire as any single bullet is billed to the soldier firing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaphappypappy

I get Major victories most of the time. However I have to play some scenarios more than once to get it.
Try Rico's latest, Jackson's Fire, and tell me you get a Major American Victory and I will want details as I have not come close.
Impossible scenario in my mind.


I fully agree with you: some scenarios are tougher than others, and a few are utterly impossible to win for one side.
I have not yet played Rico's latest: I'm going to give it a try just now.



kevinkins -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 4:31:25 PM)

Maybe try SL or ASL via Vassel:

http://www.vassalengine.org/

There is a solution to AI and it's called human intelligence. If Vassel does not float your boat, find a game
like CMx2 and PBEM. You are beating the AI and a dead horse re: TOTH.



rico21 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 4:44:26 PM)

[:D]

[image]local://upfiles/53841/EDF673E4F39447B89B40D0B69794762B.jpg[/image]



UP844 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 4:58:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slaphappypappy

Try Rico's latest, Jackson's Fire, and tell me you get a Major American Victory and I will want details as I have not come close.
Impossible scenario in my mind.


I tried it on both sides: with the Americans, I tried two times: the first time, reckoning my chances to kill a Panther or Tiger were very slim, I made a straight, full speed charge towards the exit hexes without stopping at the end of the movement phase, the second time I stopped to fire in my Defensive Fire segments.
It made absolutely no difference: in both cases, I was slaughtered (read: lost 12 out of 12 Shermans) by the Germans by turn #3, without ever scratching the paint of a German tank,

When I played on the German side, I also managed to kill all the Shermans by turn #3, losing a single Panther (I suppose to a critical hit, since it was hit on the front hull by a 75mm Sherman at 14 hexes).

Unfortunately, the scenario has a minor bug: the M36's are supposed to arrive in the US reinforcement zone #4, but there is no such area. In my opinion, if you are playing with the Americans, they wouldn't do any difference: the Shermans will all be dead by the time they arrive and they would be even easier to destroy than Shermans; if you are playing with the Germans, you can achieve 15 VP and get a Major Victory.



rico21 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 5:23:44 PM)

[sm=00000028.gif]

[image]local://upfiles/53841/4F826328FED9450C9D02ABA9D96FBBE5.jpg[/image]



UP844 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 5:36:52 PM)

[:D][:D][:D]



UP844 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 5:41:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin
You are beating the AI and a dead horse re: TOTH.


In my opinion, the horse is not yet dead and can still be saved [:)]



UP844 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/13/2018 5:47:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21
2- To criticize the AI, you have my permission to use past and future scenarios of UP844 and Big Ivan.


I did just that two years ago (the initial post is dated 5/12/2016):

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4080255&mpage=1

[;)]



slaphappypappy -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/14/2018 3:58:48 AM)

quote:

In my opinion, the horse is not yet dead and can still be saved


I wholeheartedly agree!!!

Let's keep it going!!




fuselex -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/14/2018 11:32:54 AM)

I do [:)]
Unsure about the finer details of any scenario,
But in the end I am enjoying the whole ToTH experience [:)][:)]



UP844 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/16/2018 3:25:31 PM)

As previously requested, I used one of my scenarios (Buchholz Station, Squad Leader scenario #7).

The only actual kill ratios like these that come to my mind are those recorded in US/Iraqi tank engagements during the 1991 Gulf War.

The scenario was my very first one and certainly requires a thorough revision, making use of the latest options for AI conduct: I made several revised versions. I have been moderately successful in making the American AI tougher, by giving the halftrack and the .50 MG Kill orders to sit on the hill top. From there, the .50 HMG has the plain below well within its normal range (20 hexes) and life for a German attacker becomes a bit harder (in plain English: he will win anyway, but not so easily). Of course the .50 HMG and the HT become prime targets for the German, and once they are killed, the game reverts to the usual slaughter of innocents.
I still have to find some way to make the German AI a worthwile opponent [&:] (any suggestions -except doubling the number of units in the German OOB and adding a platoon of Tigers [:D] - are welcome).

[image]local://upfiles/53779/69B04F244B6A419BA9A6A43B184BF31D.jpg[/image]



rico21 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/16/2018 4:40:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

Ok, guys, here are some rico-rules:
1- Criticize the AI is criticize Peter, you do not have my permission to use my scenarios for this purpose.
2- To criticize the AI, you have my permission to use past and future scenarios of UP844 and Big Ivan.
3- In case of problems with these new rules please see this with my lawyer Slaphappypappy.

Erratum...
2- To criticize the AI, you have my permission to use past and future scenarios of UP844, Big Ivan and LN59.[:D]



fuselex -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/16/2018 4:53:39 PM)

As always UP844
your contribution to the game is outstanding.

`In my opinion, the horse is not yet dead and can still be saved `

I have never felt the horse was on it`s last legs :)
I feel the game is just developing .
Thank you Peter for your dedication.
thanks to all who have taken the time from day one to help progress the game to the point it is now.
2 years later and it is a far better game than the released version.


I`m in no rush ,
Pretty sure Toth will be around in another couple of years , and I imagine Toth will have made big steps
forward
due to all



fuselex -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/16/2018 4:57:00 PM)

And Generalissimo.
What can we say for your contribution [:D]

[image]local://upfiles/49575/C2BA3BC87CF649DEAE77286BF2F978CC.jpg[/image]



rico21 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (5/22/2018 2:38:52 PM)

[:)]



Gerry4321 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (7/11/2018 12:42:51 PM)

Wondering how much change has been to AI firing? In the change log it says a minor adjustment I think.

When I played the AI sometimes wouldn't even fire in the defensive fire segment. It made no sense as there are no snipers to activate. Thanks.



UP844 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (7/17/2018 12:23:02 AM)

Two examples of AI aloofness I experienced while playing an old classic (Defending at Meximieux) after Update 5.

Case #1

Three GE 1st Line squads Assault moved in a woods hex adjacent to the US 2nd Line squad with the DC.

The squad never fired in the German Movement Segment. OK, there may be other German units moving later.

Now, however, it is the American Defensive Fire Segment:
- no other Germans can appear;
- there are no other possible targets in any hex where the US squad can fire (highlighted);
- the squad has a significant chance to hurt the Germans (10 FP @ +1 require a "8-" DR for a PTC = 72.2%)

two last points that I doubt the AI can "think" about:
- an unharmed German can first fire 6 FP @ 0, requiring a "8-" for a PTC = 72.2%, with greater chances of success than the possible US fire, since the US squad has a morale level of 6.
- the German can enter CC with a 3:1 numerical advantage and a -1 leadership DRM.

The American squad did not fire. The German squads fired, pinned the squad, entered CC and killed it.

Case #2

The German B** leader and a squad moved adjacent to an US HS armed with a bazooka (I had to move the German Gw III/IV on the left, so I took the risk: after all, if the HS fired at the squad, it would not fire at the AFV).

Even in this case, the HS didn't fire in the German Movement Segment (it would have fired with 4FP @ -1, not a bad shot in my opinion), but I can understand this: after all, I didn't move the AFV because it could have taken a BAZ shot at 3 hexes.

In the American defensive fire, with no one else to fire at, the HS didn't fire anyway. It was broken by German fire (7 FP @ -1) in the Advancing Fire Segment.

P.S. I know I am a royal pain, but I really love this game.

[image]local://upfiles/53779/AB0935A6E657454E8C5BEA813202935B.jpg[/image]



Big Ivan -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (7/17/2018 7:34:13 AM)

I never thought of you as a "royal pain" UP844, just committed to make this game better!

In fact your comments and observations about this game are nothing short of outstanding!![&o]

Yes I can see you do love this game and that dedication helps all of us players out.

[sm=00000436.gif]

Big Ivan[;)]



Gerry4321 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (7/17/2018 2:20:36 PM)

Thanks for noting these examples.

I think this could be one of the easiest fixes to the AI - have it fire all units in the Defensive Fire Segment. If you want to be cautious you could set it up so it does not fire MGs as they can break.



Peter Fisla -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (7/17/2018 5:25:30 PM)

UP844, do you have a saved game I can take a look?



UP844 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (7/17/2018 7:54:41 PM)

Peter, unfortunately I do not have a saved game. I would have to save the game at the start of the German Movement Segment, but I has no way to anticipate the need to save it. A (optional) auto-save feature would be helpful for debugging: I think having the game saved (overwriting the previous auto-save file) at the start of every player segment that is followed by an AI segment should be enough to shed some light on most AI-related bugs.

I will try to reproduce the situation in a purpose-made test scenario.

This is another case, taken from a game of Prokhorovka. The image was taken in the Reinforcement Segment of the German Turn 13 (day), but the advance took place in the Advance Segment of the Russian Turn 12 (night).

The Russian stack was in the Brush hex from which it advanced.

My Pz IV F2 was OOC (and so, it was unable to fire on the Engineers when they arrived in the adjacent hex).

I was accepting the idea to lose a Pz IV in CC without being able to avoid it, when the engineers, instead of entering CC, advanced just in front of the tank. Since it was night, the Engineers could not see the other Pz IV. I don't have the CC table here, but I think they had an excellent chance of killing the tank.

I also thought the AI could have "thought" closing on the VP hexes more important than killing the tank, but the range to the two VP hexes would have been the same.

In the Fire Segment, they were slaughtered by point blank 75mm and MG fire, of course.

[image]local://upfiles/53779/7F2582864FAB4B8DAEFB816AB2CE6733.jpg[/image]



Peter Fisla -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (7/17/2018 9:15:50 PM)

just save before each segment, of course if you remember



UP844 -> RE: Do you think this is fun? (7/17/2018 10:17:49 PM)

My attempt to recreate the failure to AI fire through a test scenario failed miserably: they AI squads fired like demons on the squads assault moving in the adjacent hex [:(]

I set up 12 German squads: each one of them Assault Moved 1 hex and ended adjacent to a 2nd Line US squad that can only fire to the moving squad. I played the test scenario 5 times and - because of C&C - 38 German squads moved adjacent to the US squads.

30 times, the US squads fired twice (First Fire and Final Fire), or went to Final Fire status because of Cowering
8 times, the US squads fired only once (First Fire) because First Fire was enough to break the German squad. They then fired a second time in the Defensive Fire Segment.

Never once an US squad failed to fire [&:][&:][&:].

I'll try saving just before the Movement Segment.



[image]local://upfiles/53779/26DE01CE4E4A491393F01F1FEDC8A026.jpg[/image]



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
2.875