Learning curve is prohibitive

Learning curve is prohibitive (Full Version)

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DadeCariaga -> Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 2:33:49 PM)
Hi, all. My friend, doctorking, spoke very highly of this game. He and I have been wargaming friends for more than 20 years, so I have a lot of respect for his opinion. Well, I went ahead and bought the game. Very disappointed! I've spent 3 months trying to learn the game and despite the efforts of doctorking, many hours of messing around in the game, and poring through the forums, I still don't get it. A game about trucks? Is that really what all this is about? The game suffers terribly from a lack of useful documentation. The "manual" such as it is, is more a detailed description of dialog boxes and algorithms than it is an instruction manual. I've posted the same complaints on Steam and been told by experienced players that "the obvious conclusion is that this game is not for you." Too bad. I'm a WWII history buff, and this game obviously has dedicated players. But it seems that unless you're willing to invest (literally) hundreds of hours puzzling out the arcana that governs the software, it is unplayable. Any advice for someone who spent $80 frickin' dollars on this game?

Stelteck -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 2:49:26 PM)
Why trying to get everything before playing ? Start a game right now and have fun. You can even start a multiplayer game with another newbie and see what is happening (and learning during the process). Let a lot of things managed automaticaly (such as the air force and support units) for now. You will also discover that while there are tons of parameters managed in the game, not all of them are equally important.

beender -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 2:52:26 PM)
I bought the game about the same time as you (this March). My experience is to first read as much as you can, manuals, whatsnew document, and forum posts and AARs, to name the three most important materials. It is very boring but helpful. After immersing in this ocean of information for about a month then you start to get concrete feelings, while trying to play without much understanding of the whole picture may only make the player frustrated because he will have no clue why this or that happens, or worse, what this or that is at all. Btw doctorking has really provided a lot of useful resources. I hope you two can enjoy wite because it's absolutely the best wargame i've ever played, once you overcome the learning curve of course[:'(]

Telemecus -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 2:53:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stelteck Why trying to get everything before playing ? Start a game right now and have fun. You can even start a multiplayer game with another newbie and see what is happening (and learning during the process). Let a lot of things managed automaticaly (such as the air force and support units) for now. You will also discover that while there are tons of parameters managed in the game, not all of them are equally important. +1 I played my first game just pushing units around as I thought they should be and had tons of fun before really getting in to the innards of the game. And learning the details is much easier when you have the desire to want to - and understand the consequences of doing so.

beender -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 2:56:14 PM)
Appears i'm the minority here[:D]

Telemecus -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 3:01:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beender Appears i'm the minority here[:D] I guess different strokes and finding your favourite learning style. The trick is to do enough to perform what you want, but not so much as to make it boring.

SparkleyTits -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 3:04:30 PM)
I had the same problem I could not get the motivation to use the AI as a way to dive into all the mechanics and trying to understand all of the rules in the manual just did not sink in at all In the end I did what Stelteck just advised and kept playing multiplayer games (badly) and learnt A,B,C as I went along

DadeCariaga -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 3:05:05 PM)
Perhaps, but you're approach is more to my style. I don't like moving counters around without knowing what I'm doing. I know how to execute a pocket. I know how to complete a deliberate vs. hasty attack. I know how to blow a hole in the line with infantry and run my panzers through the line. What I don't know is why I want to cashier a general. Or how to set my air doctrine. Or why some planes can't be assigned to some airbases. Or when to buildup HQ. Or what to do if the number of trucks gets depleted. Or when/how to combine brigades into divisions. Or when to swap out one type of tanks for another. And does any of the above matter?

beender -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 3:11:03 PM)
Yeah I was confused by all these questions too. I was told to do this or that but the burning questions was why? Just memorizing them is boring and inefficient. Good news is, for every single one of these practices or preferences, there is an answer or explanation. So although the jigsaw is huge, in the end you'll be able to collect all the pieces. Just requires a lot of time. But then you'll find these investments pay off.

DadeCariaga -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 3:15:26 PM)
doctorking is a professor in Real Life(tm). I better work on him to design a college-level course: WITE 202. [:)]

Telemecus -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 3:19:50 PM)
it will also need an active research program because lets face it there are some parts of the game no one knows now!

DadeCariaga -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 3:21:06 PM)
If that's the case, that no one understands how the game works, what is the attraction?

ICalli -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 3:28:53 PM)
Good post Dade! This opinion is shared by many including myself! I have somewhat enjoyed the learning process but really dislike the fact that some things "under the hood" are left to speculation and change with updates. That makes it hard to achieve consistent results to nail down how the game works for me personally. I will echo some of the other comments that the "trial by fire" method for learning the game is easier than trying to understand all the rules immediately. I hope you stick with your journey and I will see you on the field. Good luck!

Telemecus -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 3:29:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DadeCariaga If that's the case, that no one understands how the game works, what is the attraction? I guess that is the same question you need to ask any research academic? I suppose Stephen Hawking or Francis Crick wanted to be the first to know? Will you be the first to know how fighter dogfights are resolved? [:D]

STEF78 -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 6:20:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: Stelteck Why trying to get everything before playing ? Start a game right now and have fun. You can even start a multiplayer game with another newbie and see what is happening (and learning during the process). Let a lot of things managed automaticaly (such as the air force and support units) for now. You will also discover that while there are tons of parameters managed in the game, not all of them are equally important. +1 I played my first game just pushing units around as I thought they should be and had tons of fun before really getting in to the innards of the game. And learning the details is much easier when you have the desire to want to - and understand the consequences of doing so. +1 same way for me against AI I played the VK tutorial then the GC, as russian with settings Axis 80 Russia 120... [;)], the germans didn't cross the Dniepr!!!!

No idea -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 7:37:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DadeCariaga Hi, all. My friend, doctorking, spoke very highly of this game. He and I have been wargaming friends for more than 20 years, so I have a lot of respect for his opinion. Well, I went ahead and bought the game. Very disappointed! I've spent 3 months trying to learn the game and despite the efforts of doctorking, many hours of messing around in the game, and poring through the forums, I still don't get it. A game about trucks? Is that really what all this is about? The game suffers terribly from a lack of useful documentation. The "manual" such as it is, is more a detailed description of dialog boxes and algorithms than it is an instruction manual. I've posted the same complaints on Steam and been told by experienced players that "the obvious conclusion is that this game is not for you." Too bad. I'm a WWII history buff, and this game obviously has dedicated players. But it seems that unless you're willing to invest (literally) hundreds of hours puzzling out the arcana that governs the software, it is unplayable. Any advice for someone who spent $80 frickin' dollars on this game? I also started by reading the manuals and guides. Wrong path if you want to have fun, which is what you are here for. Simply learn the basics and go ahead with some quick scenario. When you have done several of those you will have learnt a lot simply playing, and then you will be learning and having some fun. Once you have mastered the basics (mastering all the aspects of the game, at least with both sides, it is extremely difficult) you can get into play against other players and have some real fun Ps. For more arcane parts of the game (like the trucks you mentioned, or generals, or admin points) simply ask in these forums instead of losing several hours trying tomfigure it out by yourself

Kielec -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/6/2018 8:21:42 PM)
As far as video resources for beginners go, you may want to check the MarauderPL youtube channel. His tutorial, notably outdated (2 years old now), covers most of the important stuff (trucks and generals included, eh?) for the grand Axis campaign. It starts here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMbU1Tk2ooM&t=12s But if you are thinking investing literally hundreds of hours into this kind of entertainment is not what you'd like to do (or can afford), just do your maths. In the grand campaign, "making" a turn in under one hour is unlikely (well, first turn as the Axis takes a lot longer...). Yet, there are 250 or so turns till the end (unless Sudden Death, or whatnot house rules). Well, there you go. 300 hours (easily) for just one go... And, yes, it's worth it ;-) Good luck! K.

thedoctorking -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/7/2018 12:13:45 AM)
Dade and Isaac, when Isaac gets back from Japan we should start a 3-player. Or recruit an experienced player and do a 4-player. I've learned a lot from the 6-player I'm in. Though it does go slow.

thedoctorking -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/7/2018 12:14:52 AM)
And since you guys started with 1.11.01, perhaps we should stick to it instead of upgrading. The new 1.11.02 beta appears to have some issues anyway.

Simon Edmonds -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/7/2018 2:34:17 AM)
Hi Dade. I am a recruit like you. I only seriously started on the game about 6 months ago. Before that I was simply too intimidated by it. Probably like you I thought I would simply learn the manual before I started. Crash and burn. Probably be easier to learn a university degree. Finally I just started playing. I took on the "Road to Minsk" first;and progressively worked my way up to harder scenarios. When I found things I didn't understand; then I went to the book. Despite it's complexity I encourage you to stick with it. For world war two history buffs it is an incredible "what if" tool.

56ajax -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/7/2018 4:01:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DadeCariaga Perhaps, but you're approach is more to my style. I don't like moving counters around without knowing what I'm doing. I know how to execute a pocket. I know how to complete a deliberate vs. hasty attack. I know how to blow a hole in the line with infantry and run my panzers through the line. What I don't know is why I want to cashier a general. Or how to set my air doctrine. Or why some planes can't be assigned to some airbases. Or when to buildup HQ. Or what to do if the number of trucks gets depleted. Or when/how to combine brigades into divisions. Or when to swap out one type of tanks for another. And does any of the above matter? You are going the right way about it by asking questions. Please read the manual, release notes etc and search the forums. But in the mean time Cashier a General - you want your best generals at the front. When you click on an HQ it has the leaders name with a number eg Korobkov (3.2) The number is an average of the leaders skills. The higher the number the better. It costs Admin points to change leaders so watch out. Air Doctrine. Info Screens tab, the button with 3 planes on it. Some of the missions happen automatically and some require manual intervention Planes on bases - Soviets you can assign any planes you like to any base but they will not fly if thy are on night missions and it is daytime, out of target range, already travelled 100%, there are 9 squadrons on the base and I think the system can only fly 8 (might be crazy about this one) AXIS - not my strong point; I think you can only assign recon and supply to Army bases HQ Buildup - build up supplies for an offensive; can be really gamey Trucks = supply. try and keep your units in supply. Too be honest I do not survive in this game long enough for this to be an issue. Combining brigades into Divisions - only allowed 3 units in a hex regardless of their size or strength so the bigger the units the better; if you have lots of units but running low on manpower Tanks - you can't swap tanks unfortunately By the way I am still learning, after 7 years.....

MarauderPL -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/7/2018 7:48:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 56ajax Planes on bases - Soviets you can assign any planes you like to any base but they will not fly if thy are on night missions and it is daytime That is super misleading for new players, plz dont ;) There is no daytime or nighttime, the turns are a week long abstract. There is just a button toggle to carry out day missions or night missions. Obviously planes set to night cant fly the daylight missions and vice versa. Also dont put your airbases on urban, heavy woods and swamps, because then they dont work. There are also limitations on particular types of missions, like recon (2 times per hex), airbase bombing (2 times per hex, less than x% of miles flown for the squadron - dont remember the x) and probably some more. Dont give up man! All these rules are not really important unless you challenge the best players around, you can win vs the AI without the airforce at all ;)

topeverest -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/8/2018 11:54:57 AM)
+1 The fun is in playing and learning. Get a PBEM or solitaire game going. There is only so much you can learn from the manual. In my experience this title is an outstanding, complex simulation that has been thoroughly thought through and tested. The best $80 I ever spent! That said, this kind of simulation may not be your cup of tea, and only you can tell. I am playing my first full PBEM game and learning every turn. I couldn't hope to be a seasoned expert in just one playthrough. quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: Stelteck Why trying to get everything before playing ? Start a game right now and have fun. You can even start a multiplayer game with another newbie and see what is happening (and learning during the process). Let a lot of things managed automaticaly (such as the air force and support units) for now. You will also discover that while there are tons of parameters managed in the game, not all of them are equally important. +1 I played my first game just pushing units around as I thought they should be and had tons of fun before really getting in to the innards of the game. And learning the details is much easier when you have the desire to want to - and understand the consequences of doing so.

Capitaine -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/8/2018 2:57:17 PM)
I don't know if it's been said yet but you do not need to know and understand all the rules to start playing this and having fun. The better you wish to be at the game, the more you will need to know and grasp. But learning by doing is the best approach -- unless you're a savant who can digest everything at once lol. Play the tutorial, then play the Heeresgruppe Nord scenario until you can win it. Then go to the Heeresgruppe Sud scenario and play till you win it. Then Heeresgruppe Mitte and so on. These are good games all by themselves. If you bite off more than you can chew, you have only yourself to blame. Eventually, by playing and investigating things that come up during play, you will become more fluent with the rules and concepts, and things will become much more uncomplicated. It's a process.

BeirutDude -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/9/2018 9:58:30 PM)
No you're not the only one, I also gave up on this and War in the West. I even bought the War in the West Manual, but it's like reading a college textbook.

mouse707 -> RE: Learning curve is prohibitive (6/10/2018 9:53:05 AM)
My first game, some years ago, was a solo game with germany and normal difficulty. Loving wargames from a long time, I've enjoyed this solo game a lot. The German OOB is very detailed, units and the map are nice, you can have a grand strategy plan and you can build some tactical operations without knowing too much about the game. You have the pleasure to use very powerful mobile divisions. You only have to know that you have 2 types of attack (Hasty and prepaired), that a chain of command exists (with the max distance to HQ to have bonuses), the rules about cutting supply (first cutting supply lines with Hex control, and then attacking units). Other points are very intuitive (like choosing the best commanders). With only that, I've enjoyed a great barbarossa campaign and won in 1942. You don't really need to master many micro-things, that's the advantage of a computer game over a board game. You can play the whole game without knowing anything at the air game (excepted making recons and moving airbases). I've even let the AI bomb the russian airbases on the 1st turn of barbarossa and the result was quite correct, and not so bad compared to what i would do now. Compared to WITW, you can really have a fun game with only standard notions of wargaming.

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