Close assaults question (Full Version)

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Igor -> Close assaults question (6/9/2001 3:05:00 PM)

Does friendly infantry have any value in protecting AFVs from enemy close assaults besides that of applique armor? If not, why not? For example. Say there were two squads of unsuppressed infantry adjacent to an enemy squad in cover. An AFV moves into the hex with those two squads, and is promptly blown up by the enemy squad (this has happened to me, btw). Did those two friendly squads do diddly besides mix drinks and take bets while the assault was in progress? Did they, for instance, affect the skill/morale roll to launch the attack; or make it less likely to work?



The German -> (6/9/2001 3:59:00 PM)

A good question, Igor. I will be interested in the answer.



Commander Klank -> (6/9/2001 4:25:00 PM)

Me too! i always thought Infantry protected Armor.



Gen. Maczek -> (6/10/2001 1:36:00 AM)

Good question...Id be interested to know also. Regards Gen. Maczek



Don -> (6/10/2001 4:48:00 AM)

I do know that having infantry ON the tank helps protect it from assault - when possible have some troops riding along.



IKerensky -> (6/10/2001 5:14:00 AM)

Err with version 5.1 I am unsure the riding troups provide that much support , I usualy see them take a lot of punishment then the first ennemy squad proceed with a standard attack ( quite effective in early or late war ) , and the second ennemy squad assault the tank without any hinderance.



Don -> (6/10/2001 5:25:00 AM)

Right, Ivan. I think the benefit is only to the first assault. After that it gets in to the original question. Being this is a turn based game, if you move that tank into the hex in question then that would give the enemy squad an op-fire opportunity which the first two squads would not be able to stop. Personally, I wouldn't move the tank into that hex unless desperate or until the enemy squad is suppressed by the friendly infantry. If that one enemy squad is kicking but on your two squads, then definitely DO NOT move an AFV into that hex. I think that is how the two squads would effect the action of the enemy squad, but I'm no expert on this. Maybe Paul can clarify.



Igor -> (6/10/2001 12:06:00 PM)

Actually, the defending squad was half dead by that point. The attacking infantry had arrived the last turn and shot up the defenders. At the top of the turn I moved in a Stug because I wanted the infantry to move without the penalty for being fired at, and I assumed that the defenders were still suppressed (British, btw) because they had not fired during their turn. Now, I certainly could have been wrong about the defenders being suppressed; but 2 fresh infantry squads apparantly stood by and let the Stug die when it was brought up to support them. If this appearance was correct, I'm curious as to why; if not, I'd like to know what they did (or tried) to do.



Don -> (6/10/2001 12:16:00 PM)

I think the whole point here is that once you move the tank into the hex, the squads in that hex not only cannot do anything, but are not part of the action until the AI does whatever it does in reaction to the tank moving. In this game you can't have the tank move, then the enemy decide to assault, then the friendly troops decide to protect the tank before the AI assaults. Maybe in one of the newer games that'll happen. What seems related here is the "thing" where an enemy unit does not fire, does not fire and then fires. Some have complained about this, I know. I agree that it wasn't a bad time to move the tank up - I probably would have done the same at that point - but the way op-fire is working it's not a total suprise. This way you cannot "soak off" all of the op-fire and then move up with your valuable units, so it's probably working as intended. Just makes it more a crapshoot! :)



Igor -> (6/10/2001 12:28:00 PM)

The problem isn't entirely one of op-fire; I could just as freely move my infantry into contact with a supported enemy tank, and ignore the infantry in it's hex to close assault it. Granted, I may well get shot up going in; but I can still rally off the suppression and close assault (unless I get seriously beaten on) without any further hindrance from the infantry. It seems to me that it shouldn't be too hard to add a variable to the close assault routine; while checking for vehicle facing, armor, suppression, armament, and etc, the game could check for unsuppressed friendly infantry in the hex (or some very short distance away). Even if they can't fire because of the oddities of the turn based system, they can passively defend the tank from the attack by making it less likely to happen or to work.



Don -> (6/10/2001 3:07:00 PM)

I'm no programmer, but I don't think they can do what you're asking - when they added an option to fire smoke during op-fire that never worked and had to be removed. I think it's beyond the limitations of this game, but that's for Paul to say. All these are good ideas for the new game though!



Commander Klank -> (6/10/2001 5:44:00 PM)

Now my 2 cents worth on this............ :D I feel you guys pain. Seems like the AI's troops always defend thier tanks and mine (sometimes) just stand around smoke'in an joke'in......LOL I've always had the impression "assaultng" is done in the same hex as the target. IE, an assulting unit in an ajacent hex "runs/assaults" into the target's hex, attacks it (the tank/bunker or what ever) and then runs back into its own hex. (If I'm wrong on this then I guess my whole point is mute. I'd love to meet the guy that throws the demo charge over 25 meters..........LOL) A hex is 25 meters in the game right? Now if you got 8 to 12 (let alone 20 or so) guys in it with a tank I find it hard to belive that an enemy infantry unit would be able to attack the tank with out getting shot up its self. Even if they (the units with the tank) had some surppession on them (aside from being routed or retreating) I think most units would fire on enemy troops "assulting" into its hex; esspesaly if they are ignoring them and concentrating on the tank. I've always assumed the infanrty would cover a tank from close assault by other infantry. Prehaps a "cover tank/infantry" order in the command section is in order. What it would do is make an infantry unit protect any armor in its hex and like wise if you gave this order to a tank it will fire on any thing that fires on the infantry. Just though I'd throw that out there (along with a demo charge)........ :D



IKerensky -> (6/10/2001 6:04:00 PM)

Also with limited intell on it is nearly impossible to avoir the tanks to be assaulted. For my own experiment in a beach assault , noon , in a sand hex . I had the hex on sight from 5 to 8 inf unit. An APc , 2 truc and 1 inf unit pas through the hex, I sherman travel through the hex and get assaulted by ennemy inf there and destroyed , I saw them shoot twice they pop out of SIGHT !! and wasn't to be seen gain next turn !!! I love the old firer option , or the no info on unit option but I think we need to tweak the limited intel option ( perhaps in dividing it in 3 option ).



Igor -> (6/11/2001 6:09:00 AM)

If you knew that infantry unit was there, then the way to avoid losing the tank was to shoot at them until they were too badly suppressed to launch a close assault. Except for the Red Army, which can unsuppress itself, this will keep the enemy infantry down for the rest of the turn. Of course, if you did not know the enemy was there despite moving your own infantry next to it, then you were moving too fast in an area you didn't control. The defending infantry held their fire until the tank came by, then destroyed it. Score one for them; now you get to go clear them out while they scurry back under cover.



IKerensky -> (6/11/2001 10:03:00 PM)

considering that I have well bombarded the area and that i have plenty of troups in front , in rear and in side of the current SAND hexes for something like 4 turns I just guess I could consider this one as a back stage area and could go on safelly. Saddly I doesnt look after the french legionnair dug under 4 feet of sand that ambushed my tanks. ( only explanation not to saw them before.



Paul Vebber -> (6/12/2001 3:52:00 AM)

hexes are 50m in SP and I've yet to see a hex grid over the lanscape, so anytime you are adjacent you might be WAY over on the edge by his hex and the baddies WAY over on the edge near your hex... Units are not assumed to alyaws bein the center of the hex! Friendly infantry does not automatically "stop an assualt" like in SP1. Good ideas, but beyond the ability of SP... [ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]



Paul Goodman -> (6/12/2001 7:36:00 AM)

Right! And then those invisible guys that are 40 meters away blow the tank with a molotov or a satchel charge. While two squads of infantry do nothing. Then they become invisible again. If this seems reasonable to most players, ifne. But it sure doesn't seem reasonable to me.



Igor -> (6/12/2001 7:54:00 AM)

"Saddly I doesnt look after the french legionnair dug under 4 feet of sand that ambushed my tanks." Those sneaky Frogs...seriously; entrenched units are very hard to dig out with indirect fire. It takes several hits from 150mm+ shells or rockets to shift them, usually; until they rout they just dig in deeper. As for not spotting them; dug in units are hard to see. The smoke from the bombardment you mentioned would only make that worse. As long as they kept their heads down, they were all but invisible. If you want to make sure that you spotted all of the defenders in an area, then you have to do a hex by hex infantry search or use slow moving recon sections (who will spot adjacent units). This will give you clear routes to the rear that your vehicles can pour through. An important tip; move the recon troops one hex at a time, and turn them to look from side to side, or they might miss something. The chance of spotting someone goes down unless the spotter actually looks that way, and that leads to missed enemy troops (and dead tanks).



Igor -> (6/12/2001 8:09:00 AM)

"And then those invisible guys that are 40 meters away blow the tank with a molotov or a satchel charge. While two squads of infantry do nothing. Then they become invisible again. If this seems reasonable to most players, ifne. But it sure doesn't seem reasonable to me." Put that way, it isn't. However, that never happened. When the two squads failed to stop the Stug from dying, the enemy infantry started, and ended, the turn spotted. Granted, it was a little weird that it happened; but if the game engine can't handle passive escorts then we're just going to have to get used to shooting up enemy infantry before the armor rolls up to administer the coup de grace. In the case where the unspotted infantry struck then faded away, I suspect that there were no attacking units close enough to keep them under observation after they killed the tank. This is just an example of what an ambush should be; kill the blighters when no one else can see you, then hide again until the next target comes along...



IKerensky -> (6/12/2001 8:30:00 AM)

hum, I did check carefully the hex = I already says that 2 inf squad and 1 apc come through it. And their was plenty of attacker close enough to see them afterward, even some IN the casual hex. BTW how can possibly a unit hide completly when surrounded ? also if they are in cover and dug and make no action I am ok they keep invis. If they fire and are not seeen I am ok they keep invis. But if they fire and then are seen why did they disappear ? I know they were here ! why dont just make them have a stronger cover defense bonus when "hiding" but please let them on map or put any icons you want to help us remember they was here in the first place.



Igor -> (6/12/2001 8:43:00 AM)

Ok, you got me. I didn't think dismounted infantry could walk through a hex containing enemy units and not notice them. I thought you had said that all this had gone through an adjacent hex, not the hex with the defenders (Bad Igor). That's harsh, even for limited intel. Have you tried doing that again? Rerun the turn, or set up a quick battle with a couple of units, to see if this kind of thing happens often?



Don -> (6/12/2001 11:48:00 AM)

Sounds like you may have "limited intel" on, which causes spotted troops to disappear. You may like it better turned off as some others in the "limited intel" thread do. But also, sometimes it's also suppresion that causes then to vanish - when I hit "R" they re-appear.



pbhawkin1 -> (6/14/2001 10:50:00 AM)

hi all, Well..... I had a grant come down a hill into clear a hex, move one more hex and stop, there was also a m-10, sniper and inf unit moving along similar path. Next turn two (2) stugs appear in the clear hex the grant had moved through and shot at the m-10!! Then these stugs disappear when it is my turn, although they reappear when i directly target the hex with direct fire!! Now this hex wasn't a reinforcement hex (i checked after the game). So I also have a problem with units that disappear or aren't spotted!! Slightly too good a job of camourflage for my taste! peter



Jacc -> (6/15/2001 4:26:00 AM)

3094 posted June 14, 2001 05:23 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That kind of .... happens. The StuGs may have been moving, but but... One a JS-III popped out of nowhere in the rear of my forces - and it was a small map, with water on much of the south side, and my forces certainly cleared every single hex. And I had reserves behind. And also: I have a tank sitting in a hill. One kilometer farther, my recon units spot a infantry squad in the forest. So, my tank now has LOS on it (whatta...), and it fires. Also, I happen to turn the hull of this Steel Beast, and what can I see: infantry - 3 hexes away? So armoured units (including trucks etc.) MUST face the hex in certain occasions to see the enemy? And they weren't buttoned. This might explain the StuGs which popped out of nowhere.



FrankyVas -> (6/15/2001 6:11:00 AM)

The hiden infantry thing has happened to me too. Those pesky Brits can really hid in the desert at noon. Drive half traks through them, infantry and then my pretty MK IV comes throught and gets blown up by the ghost squad. Very weird but makes the game more unpredictable and fun. Frank V.



Brummagem -> (6/16/2001 1:55:00 AM)

What I like doing is opening up on advancing Russian armour with a flak unit. Normally good for 4 or 5 casulties from the infantry riding onboard. The German 20mm units are especially good at this. Hit the tanks before they get to your forward dug in engineers. They go in blind and the engineers win the assult 9 times out 10. :D



Brummagem -> (6/16/2001 1:57:00 AM)

Hey Frankie, Northridge is a nice town, how long you been playing SP.



Larry Holt -> (6/16/2001 1:58:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Brummagem: What I like doing is opening up on advancing Russian armour with a flak unit. Normally good for 4 or 5 casulties from the infantry riding onboard. The German 20mm units are especially good at this. Hit the tanks before they get to your forward dug in engineers. They go in blind and the engineers win the assult 9 times out 10. :D
Exactly what the Germans did in WWII, used flak to drive the Red infantry to ground then close assaulted the blind tanks!



Brummagem -> (6/16/2001 2:08:00 AM)

I think the matrix team has modeled that and other affects much better in ths version. Makes more sense that the infantry just dismounting. ;) I always thought that sitting on a tank with 20mm round riccocheting all over the place would be hair-raising to say the least.



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