Marder series of armored vehicles in WitE (Full Version)

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leverkuhn -> Marder series of armored vehicles in WitE (6/24/2018 12:31:00 PM)

I've been doing a bit of research on the Marder series of vehicles, as I was a bit confused by the denomination they received in the game, and this is what I found out:

- I've found that what the game calls "Panzerjaeger 38" is actually the first version of the Marder III (Sdkfz 139), sporting a captured russian F-22 76mm gun.
- What the game calls "Panzerjaeger 38H", which is available in november '42, is the second version of the Marder III (Sdkfz 138 ausf. H).
- And what the game calls "Marder III" is actually the last version (Sdkfz 138 ausf. M, in service in may '43).

All three versions are mounted on the czech 38t chassis, but only the later two carry the mighty german Pak 40 75mm gun.

Something similar happens with the Panzer II variants:
- What the game calls "Panzerjaeger II" is the first version of the Marder II (Sdkfz 132), with russian 76mm gun and Panzer II D-E chassis (the one with bigger wheels).
- And what the game calls "Marder II" is actually the second version (Sdkfz 131) with the dreaded Pak 40 and running on the Panzer II A-C and F variants (with smaller wheels).

Apart from the denomination decisions, though, the game seems to be quite aware of all the different models. Except for the Marder I (mounted on the french chassis Lorraine 37L and with the Pak 40), which is surprisingly absent from the game altogether. From what I've researched, some of them did fight in Russia in 1942.

Surely the developers can explain the absence.


Update: Interestingly, though, the game does include the self-propelled 150mm artillery variant of the same Lorraine chassis (technically Sdkfz 135/1) under the denomination "SdKfz 135-1 Lorraine". These were produced by the same time (summer '42), although in fewer numbers than those of the Marder I.



SparkleyTits -> RE: Marder series of armored vehicles in WitE (6/24/2018 1:39:46 PM)

Interesting stuff and a great eye for detail there mate. I would like to know too



Aufklaerungs -> RE: Marder series of armored vehicles in WitE (6/24/2018 2:06:57 PM)

quote:

Except for the Marder I (mounted on the french chassis Lorraine 37L and with the Pak 40), which is surprisingly absent from the game altogether.


Do you know the SdKfz designation(s) for the Lorraine Marder I?

quote:

From what I've researched, some of them did fight in Russia in 1942


Interesting. Please share your source on Lorraine Marders operating against Soviets. Most Lorraine conversions were done in small numbers & remained in France/west. Not to be confused with the Panzerjäger I (47mm on Pz I chassis).

Thanks



leverkuhn -> RE: Marder series of armored vehicles in WitE (6/24/2018 3:23:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aufklaerungs


Do you know the SdKfz designation(s) for the Lorraine Marder I?


Sd.Kfz.135 (source: Wikipedia, Tank Encyclopedia -> as the forum rules do not allow me to post links, you will have to google those).



quote:

ORIGINAL: Aufklaerungs
Please share your source on Lorraine Marders operating against Soviets. Most Lorraine conversions were done in small numbers & remained in France/west. Not to be confused with the Panzerjäger I (47mm on Pz I chassis).


Yes, I'm aware of that distinction. The Panzerjaeger I fought in the East from Barbarossa, while the Marder I, which sported a much better 75mm Pak40, was introduced in summer '42.

Sources:
From The Tank Encyclopedia post:

The Marder I in action
The Marder I was given to tank-hunter units attached to each division on the Eastern Front. These units were the Pz.Jg.Abt.31, Jg.Abt.35, Jg.Abt.38, Pz.Jg.Abt.72, Jg.Schn. Abt.206 and Schnelle-Abt.256. The later was the last to operate, until total destruction in April 1944. By December 1943 or early 1944, most Marder Is had been either destroyed, and those surviving were gradually replaced by the Marder II, III and StuG III late versions. The Marder I was judged satisfactory in 1942, but since it was more of an SPG rather than a pure fighting tank hunter, losses were high until better tactics were used. The remainder were shipped back to France and then operated with Rommel’s 21st Panzer Division operating in Normandy during the crucial summer of 1944.

From English Wikipedia:

Combat history
The first Lorraine-based Marder I vehicles were sent to the Eastern Front in 1942 to serve in the Panzerjäger (tank destroyer) units of infantry divisions.

This is a list of Infantry Divisions operating on the Eastern Front known to have used Marder I's and the estimated time frame they were used

Division Battalion Time Frame
31.Inf. Div Pz. Jg.Abt.31 Aug 42 - Dec 43
35.Inf. Div 2.Kp./Pz. Jg.Abt.35 Sep 42 - Dec 43
36.Inf. Div (mot) 4.Kp./Pz. Jg.Abt.38 Oct 42 - Jun 43
72.Inf. Div 3.Kp./Pz. Jg.Abt.72 Sep 42 - Dec 43
206th Inf. Div. 1./Pz. Jg.Schn. Abt.206 Jan 43 - Dec 43
256.Inf. Div 5./Pz. Schnelle-Abt.256 Nov 42 - Apr 44



Aufklaerungs -> RE: Marder series of armored vehicles in WitE (6/24/2018 5:35:21 PM)

Thanks very much, sir!

Chamberlain & Doyle, Encyclopedia of German Tanks..., Cassell, 1999 ed., pp. 210-212
170 Lorraines converted into GMCs for PaK40, Jul-Aug 42 out of 300 captured. No mention of "Marder I" nomenclature. Authors' designation for SdKfz 135 is "7.5cm PaK 40/1 auf Geschützenwagen (GW) Lorraine Schlepper (f)."
also (p. 212)
Of remaining 130 Lorraine tractors, 94 converted into GMCs for 15cm sFH13, and 12 for 10.5cm leFH18.



Denniss -> RE: Marder series of armored vehicles in WitE (6/24/2018 9:12:41 PM)

Marder series likely received their names in 43 to early 44.
I will look into the Marder I in the east



leverkuhn -> RE: Marder series of armored vehicles in WitE (6/25/2018 12:13:43 AM)

Thank you.



Aufklaerungs -> RE: Marder series of armored vehicles in WitE (6/25/2018 1:35:09 AM)

vielen dank, Denniss.

The accounts of Becker's conversion work in France on captured vehicles are worth checking out...



Denniss -> RE: Marder series of armored vehicles in WitE (6/25/2018 9:52:32 AM)

I could easily add a unit arriving with Marder Is that disbands after arrival but I need info/research about the infantry div OBs in 42-43 - where just some specific units equipped with Marders (instead of or supplanting towed 75mms) or was it common to have 9 Marders in each inf div.



leverkuhn -> RE: Marder series of armored vehicles in WitE (6/25/2018 1:56:19 PM)

Can't really tell. Others will have to help I guess. Anyway I'm glad the question is being looked at.



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