Amphibious assault probs? (Full Version)

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Szilard -> Amphibious assault probs? (7/3/2018 9:27:05 AM)

Is it just me, or does TOAW IV have probs amphibiously assaulting any hex with any kind of enemy unit in it?

I'm wrestling with this tinkering with an old scenario of mine which as I recall worked fine under TOAW 3.x.

I checked this with a couple of runs of the Allied-AI version of the D-Day to the Ruhr scenario. If the pre-invasion bombardment doesn't clear a beach objective hex, then the AI won't invade it. So the US 4th Div remains in port if Utah remains occupied etc etc.

Any thoughts?



larryfulkerson -> RE: Amphibious assault probs? (7/3/2018 11:00:49 AM)

Oh that's a good problem if I've ever heard one. I'd like to hear the solution to that myself.
Maybe if you made them Berserk for a turn?



Szilard -> RE: Amphibious assault probs? (7/3/2018 11:03:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Oh that's a good problem if I've ever heard one. I'd like to hear the solution to that myself.
Maybe if you made them Berserk for a turn?


Tried that (on my scenario). Plus giving the assault units marine icons. Plus bumping up shock. Plus prayer & cursing :)



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Amphibious assault probs? (7/3/2018 11:58:40 AM)

I haven't checked D-Day to the Ruhr yet, but Silvanski just posted a thread where the PO did assault successfully.



Szilard -> RE: Amphibious assault probs? (7/3/2018 12:24:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I haven't checked D-Day to the Ruhr yet, but Silvanski just posted a thread where the PO did assault successfully.


In my couple of runs of DDTTR, the pre-invasion bombardment cleared some of the assault hexes, allowing some landings on DDay (in Normandy). Maybe he had a similar situation? Dunno.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Amphibious assault probs? (7/4/2018 1:19:41 AM)

Well, even humans may have difficulty achieving a 100% success rate with Amphibious Assaults. And if I am silver, Silvanski is gold, and if he saw an issue I am sure he would have said so.
It's not a straight up thing to get Elmer to be successful, experiment with everything. Check your Objectives, compare them to the assault formations in DDtR. Sometimes Elmer is better with Obj 1 at the unit location and Obj 2 at the intended landing spot, sometimes he does better with no Obj at the unit location and Obj 1 at the landing spot. Check Supply Point locations. Sometimes if a unit starts in No Supply then it will load up and assault a location that has a Supply Point for him. Use Berzerk, Attack Orders, Ignore Losses. Make sure there is plenty of Sea Transport. If Elmer detects a poor assault ratio, he's not going to try it anyway [he may be an idiot, but he's no fool, lol], so maybe -Shock the defender for the assault turn.
Good Luck, keep us informed!



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Amphibious assault probs? (7/4/2018 1:22:35 AM)

I was trying to think of everything but forgot - the Assault Div's in DDtR are loaded up with 'extra' equipment in order to get a better Assault Ratio. DD Tanks, Commando's, Rangers, etc. are all included in the actual unit. Maybe this could apply to your scenario also. [:)]



Szilard -> RE: Amphibious assault probs? (7/4/2018 1:26:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Well, even humans may have difficulty achieving a 100% success rate with Amphibious Assaults. And if I am silver, Silvanski is gold, and if he saw an issue I am sure he would have said so.
It's not a straight up thing to get Elmer to be successful, experiment with everything. Check your Objectives, compare them to the assault formations in DDtR. Sometimes Elmer is better with Obj 1 at the unit location and Obj 2 at the intended landing spot, sometimes he does better with no Obj at the unit location and Obj 1 at the landing spot. Check Supply Point locations. Sometimes if a unit starts in No Supply then it will load up and assault a location that has a Supply Point for him. Use Berzerk, Attack Orders, Ignore Losses. Make sure there is plenty of Sea Transport. If Elmer detects a poor assault ratio, he's not going to try it anyway [he may be an idiot, but he's no fool, lol], so maybe -Shock the defender for the assault turn.
Good Luck, keep us informed!


Really not an issue with successfully assaulting; rather, not even trying, if the hex is occupied by a unit, even if of very weak strength against which success is near-guaranteed.

I've played around with most of the things you suggest; no joy so far.



Szilard -> RE: Amphibious assault probs? (7/4/2018 10:44:10 AM)

You can see the same thing with the stock Normandy44 scenario. I think there are issues with this scenario, but it's a quick way of checking out the point: the AI will not embark unless & until the target hex has no enemy units.

(If the hex is empty, it may embark and then get interdicted by artillery before reaching the target, but that's a separate thing.)

Eg: It's unlikely in this scenario that bombardment will clear the Omaha beach hexes, which means you don't get an Omaha landing on turn 1. Similarly for some of the British sector beaches.

Utah is clear to start off with, so the 4th US etc load up on ships (but then they generally get interdicted & stopped at sea by the Cotentin coastal artillery, which confirms my early experiments that the embarkation issue doesn't seem to be related to the AI being scared off by long-range artillery).

DDay certainly worked in earlier versions of TOAW for this scenario.

Looking back at DDTTR, for a Normandy invasion: the shore bombardment seems to succeed usually in clearing most landing beach hexes, which masks the issue, but where some defenders do hold out, you get the same thing. At least on my PC.

(But on the other hand there never seem to be a DDay Utah landing, no matter whether or not the hex is cleared. I think the AI has trouble finding a path which doesn't consume too many MP's?)




Szilard -> RE: Amphibious assault probs? (7/4/2018 11:15:15 AM)

For the Normandy44 scenario, this is what the po_log file gives me for the US 4 Inf's 8th Regiment, embarking for landing at the (empty) Utah hex, location (17,14):


0:Formation : Allied Army 4 Infantry-Advance (0ms)
0: PO unit 8 Inf at 17,4 seeks seaborne objective. (0ms)
0: PO unit 8 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 39,40.(2) (0ms)
0: PO unit 8 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,38.(2) (0ms)
0: PO unit 8 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 9,25.(2) (0ms)
16: PO unit 8 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 3,6.(2) (16ms)
0: PO unit 8 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 8,8.(2) (0ms)
0: PO unit 8 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 11,12.(2) (0ms)
15: PO unit 8 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 13,13.(2) (15ms)
0: PO unit 8 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 15,15.(2) (0ms)
0: PO unit 8 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 17,14.(2) (0ms)
0: PO unit 8 Inf found transit seaborne objective at 17,14. (0ms)
0: PO unit 8 Inf at 17,4 boards ship. (0ms)


The AI looks along the objective path, from the highest to the lowest (Utah), and decides to embark the regt for Utah.

By contrast, this is the AI floundering around trying to find a seaborne objective for the US 1st Inf's 16th Regt, supposed to land at Omaha (23,16), and failing:


Formation : Allied Army 1 Infantry-Advance (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf at 24,4 seeks seaborne objective. (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 37,35.(2) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 32,33.(2) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 25,34.(2) (0ms)
15: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,28.(2) (15ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,23.(2) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,21.(2) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,19.(2) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,17.(2) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,16.(2) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf found no seaborne objective. (0ms)
0:PO unit 16 Inf is isolated by water from 37,35. (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,16.(3) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf examining potential transit seaborne objective at 23,16. (0ms)
16: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,17.(3) (16ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,19.(3) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,21.(3) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,23.(3) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 23,28.(3) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 25,34.(3) (0ms)
15: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 32,33.(3) (15ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking transit seaborne objective at 37,35.(3) (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf found no seaborne objective. (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf seeking forward seaborne objective at 23,16. (0ms)
0: Last Chance PO unit 16 Inf seeking forward seaborne objective at 23,16. (0ms)
0: PO unit 16 Inf at 24,4 sees no seaborne objective. (0ms)

On the first try, the AI fails to identify Omaha (23,16) as a reachable objective - because it's enemy-occupied? Then it invokes some other heuristics, but still fails to find a seaborne objective, and moves on to the next regiment.



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