Patch .03 things to ponder (Full Version)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> Patch .03 things to ponder (7/21/2018 7:48:11 PM)

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Denniss -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/21/2018 10:24:58 PM)

official changelog does not mention any change to AAA mechanics so may be a bug. Last documented AAA change was in .02



tomeck48 -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/21/2018 11:20:51 PM)

OK, but how do you really feel? [:D]

Seriously, thanks for the heads up. Think I'll stay with 11.02



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/21/2018 11:38:46 PM)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/21/2018 11:40:13 PM)

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SparkleyTits -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/21/2018 11:55:40 PM)

I actually think airforce wise this update is in favour of the Soviets

It seems that airfield bombing results are now capped at around 25 after turn 1 from what I can tell so there is no more unintercepted stuka runs with 100 kills from the Axis and the NM changes seem at least to me to simply remove variance
Now instead of tonnes of groups with 20 morale and a few with 90 that is all but gone and instead are replaced with most of Soviet planes being around 40-70 morale which overall is a better use of applicable force and easier managment for the Soviet airforce
Ontop of that there is also the AA changes with having more guns which I feel can be worked into a Soviet advantage as now stonewalling can be done more easily with less risk (Perhaps AA is a more viable SU for Soviets now because of this)
I think overall the changes to the air are a Soviet buff as now a KO of the Soviet airforce seems to me all but impossible

Regis have always been OP and this would be my number 1 priority over all needed changes as they make 41 and winter especially multiple times easier than it should be because of this one mechanic

I do think the morale changes with helds are overall an Axis buff even though the +1mp cost can be a slight annoyance but is easy enough to work around




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/22/2018 1:27:27 AM)

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SparkleyTits -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/22/2018 2:24:14 AM)

I was agreeing with you with the +1mp and saying it was a slight annoyance for Axis not for Soviets bud

With the AA I think in this update it was Soviet AA gun amount that was increased was it the same for Axis too?

I don't think the AA mechanics were changed as Denniss said it was only the increase in guns to Soviets I thought?



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/22/2018 2:36:48 AM)

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SparkleyTits -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/22/2018 2:50:39 AM)

Yes Tele taught me very well to stack AA where you thought you would be attacked but that was quite a few updates a go so if that effect has been buffed even move in the recent updates that would be very strong indeed!



beender -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/22/2018 3:43:39 AM)

Told ya.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/22/2018 5:51:12 AM)

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EwaldvonKleist -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/22/2018 8:45:44 AM)

Following your listing from the first post:

1st item (extra losses until september): They take them because historically Soviets did take huge losses from fighting. Overall training was low, the command system restricted initiative of the commanders, and even when met, the TOE of Soviet units lacked support equipment and transports of all types, which increases retreat losses and makes supporting prolonged combat difficult unless sitting directly on the depot. They should take massive losses not just from pockets, but also from grinding. I think Soviet units being destroyed by head on fighting instead of pockets is underrepresented in WitE. My game vs. S-T is only at T4 but so far I can't complain about loss ratios from fighting so far. When in prepared positions, I see 1:1, only after routs/retreats are ratios good for the Axis, but that is what one would expect.
Axis losses from fighting might be too low, but so are Soviet losses, overall ratio seems okish to me.

2nd item (losses from AA): Why bomb panzers? There are many other units to bomb on the map. On this way it becomes bit of a cat-and mouse. I am happy that the effectivity of Soviet tactical bombers is reduced on this way, back in 1.10.00 their results were redicolously high.

3rd item (extra losses from regs/brig.) Agree here, that still looks a abit off. But it not only effects the Axis, the Soviets can benefit of it as well in 1942+

4th item (new +1MP for consecutive attacks) First of all, it is good that suicidial spam attacks are nerfed somewhat. Middle earth-tactic that is. Then, the rule is not "SO PRO" German. The +1MP cost can will hurt an Axis plaer who has to manage fuel/MPs on a tight budget, and it also makes Axis soaking off attacks more costly. The removed morale loss for attacks means teh Soviets can later attack with their best units in soaking off attacks for no morale loss, which is a big + IMO.

5th item (Panzer superhumans) Please specify waht you mean. Looking at Steph vs. Stelteck, I do not see them to be superhumans from loss ratios, same in the 8MP-game.



An extra point not on your list: Unless made a special rule, anything that increases Axis losses in 1941 will also do so in 1942 and later, and from my exp with 8MP and later war scenarios and from reading AARs, loss ratio from head on fighting in late war shoudl not be made any worse fro the Axis side.

Overall, I can not complain about 1.11.03 from a Soviet's perspective in 1941 vs. S-T (only T1-T4 due to me being slowed down by RL) and from the exp in 8MP.



beender -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/22/2018 9:25:22 AM)

Soviet was nerfed too much was my immediate impression after reading the changelogs for the new patch and i was probably the first one to complain if not so loudly.

However, after playing two or three games under the new version i find out the situation is not as bad. Whatever buffs Germans get, the new +1 mp penalty system is definitely not one, not for me at least. Yes Soviet can no longer do soaking attacks but few do them effectively anyway. On the other hand, the risk to fail a hasty attack is larger. I prefer to lose a point of morale or two, rather than having to spend one additional mp in second try. In the first summer speed is everything.

As for AAs, the airwar doesn't appear to make a decisive role so I don't have enough experience to comment.

German panzers are superman in terms of losses incurred in attacking them, but they still can be repelled. Just don't look at and moan on the battle report[:D]

All in all, I would say the new patch is pro-German but not as much as I thought. However, as the game was already quite in favor of Germans (in 41 summer) even before the upgrade, the situation certainly is not getting any better.



von Beanie -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/22/2018 4:47:08 PM)

Playing the Russian side with a less experienced German opponent, I just finished a game (under the latest patch) with more than 50% of the German army destroyed before the end of the first winter. Since I last played the game a year ago, it is my opinion that the Russians have it easier now (than a year ago). In the past I had to walk my troops in from the eastern map edge because I needed all of my RR capacity to evacuate industry. Since there's less industry in the Leningrad area to evacuate now, I can get it all out and still have sufficient capacity to move the east edge troops to the front.

The change to the Red air force is irrelevant to me. On the first turn, I move every Russian plane that hasn't flown to the Reserves. I don't put any daytime planes back into play unless they are monoplanes, and have good air leadership. I also spend AP to delete all of the SAD air bases so I don't have to deal with that mess later. Of course this results in lots of interdiction attacks, but I'm usually only moving back about three or four hexes a turn, so it doesn't matter. And starting turn 3, my opponent can never know if and when I'll use my massed fighters somewhere along the front.

The Russian bombers are needed mainly for supplying partisans at night. I found this to still be the most effective use of the Red air force in 1941, and it probably delayed the German advance more than anything else I did.

As far as I can recall, I didn't make a single Russian attack in the summer of 1941, so that discussion is also irrelevant. The Russian goal is to delay the Germans, and if they can't reestablish supply via infiltration tactics, then I believe they will cause more delays by defending rather than attacking.

I'd actually like to see how overwhelming the axis side is now under the new patch, but no one has taken up my offer of a game in the opponents wanted section for the last several days.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/22/2018 10:07:42 PM)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/22/2018 10:09:26 PM)

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Aufklaerungs -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/23/2018 12:40:38 AM)

Don't play "[:@]," HLYA. Better to concede, swap sides and start over so you guys can validate/invalidate each other's observations. Don't think there's anyway to play Soviets in a Barbarossa situation and expect to inflict any real punishment before Nov 41. [8|]

Another way to check your impressions of the program patch is to play the 43-45 campaign as the Soviets. [8D]



thedoctorking -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/23/2018 3:45:58 AM)

I have only played in the multiplayer games under 1.11.03 since my games on the multiplayer server crashed with the upgrade. My sense is that you can still conduct a Soviet air superiority campaign in summer 1941 as before. Losses will be high but you can still wear the Germans down. Example: on turn 3 of the Connect4 game, we set all the modern a/c to range 1, bombed every land unit we could find, until the number and effectiveness of German fighter interceptions started to fall (when 10 Me109's intercept a raid with 30 I-153's as escort, and fighter losses are 5 German to 10 USSR, you know the Germans are fatigued). Then, we got out our good planes and bombed their airfields. Our losses were 40-60, but they lost in total 79 fighters. That's a good outcome for the USSR. Do that three or four turns in a row and the Luftwaffe is out of action.

There were not too many AAA weapons in any of those attacks. Don't know if the Axis didn't assign AAA to their HQ's or if they weren't reacting to the battles for some reason. Biggest AAA hits were when bombing the airfields, but even then it wasn't too high, maybe a dozen or so bombers shot down.

My only concern is that guys in the Reserve don't seem to be recovering fatigue very fast. I would think that two or three turns in NR would be enough to knock your fatigue down to zero no matter how high it had gotten.



tomeck48 -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/23/2018 3:53:07 PM)

I haven't really looked for any, but based on the casualty reports I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary. The caveat there is that I'm still a beginner and certainly not an air war expert. But if all my ground support were getting shot to hell I think I'd notice something.



thedoctorking -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/24/2018 12:51:37 AM)

Maybe what's happened is that Sparkley has set some AAA traps for HLYA in the two-player game they're in.



SparkleyTits -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/24/2018 2:01:54 AM)

You might well be right about a bug with 1 fatigue per turn in reserve as Tele and Searry were mentioning that too

Yes HL knows I set AA blocks up for him as he's a player that notices almost everything you do but he also knows how to get around them to hit my squishy underbelly too!!
Like EvK said it's akin to a game of cat and mouse and with the increase in Soviet AA guns per SU that both sides can now do



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/24/2018 4:56:56 AM)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/24/2018 5:36:54 AM)

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EwaldvonKleist -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/24/2018 7:16:19 AM)

Re AA: I have noticed higher losses from AA lately as well. Not sure when that began, somewhere between 1.11.01 and 1.11.03. Not time to make tests atm but someone should look if that is WAD.

@HLYA: If you have set up test scenarios, you should consider sending them to morvael. Ideally set them up under 1.10.00 so one can test with every patch that followed to see if that are changed player tactics or if the reason is the game version.
The new air rules allow the German player to reduce the AA protection for airfields, so he has more for frontline units.

Also, I need to add an addendum to my reply above: I do not comment on the overall balance, my feeling is that it is okay overall (in terms of "will and if yes, when will Berlin fall, whatever happened between game start and that event) but I have not enough data to base my claim on to be somewhat sure. All I say is I disagree that the changes in 1.11.03 disfavour the Soviets compared to the state of the game in 1.10.00, 1.11.00 and 1.11.01 the way you described it in the initial post.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/24/2018 1:24:48 PM)

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chaos45 -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/24/2018 3:16:57 PM)

HLYA- one note would be if German AA is more effective then so is Soviet AA....which should benefit the soviets more in 1941 as it will help reduce the massive bonus stuka airstrikes give to the germans.

With all the new changes to air I have been putting Soviet AA units in all the frontline armies- esp the larger Soviet AA regiments...you can save alot of these from the cities.

Havent played super far on the newer patches as my last German player disappeared on me after T6.



M60A3TTS -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/24/2018 3:58:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

HLYA- one note would be if German AA is more effective then so is Soviet AA....which should benefit the soviets more in 1941 as it will help reduce the massive bonus stuka airstrikes give to the germans.

With all the new changes to air I have been putting Soviet AA units in all the frontline armies- esp the larger Soviet AA regiments...you can save alot of these from the cities.

Havent played super far on the newer patches as my last German player disappeared on me after T6.




The NM difference in 1941-42 still means the Soviet air units are going to be less effective than their opposite number by a significant degree. That, coupled with the fact that the win system makes it more difficult to elevate the regiments to guards state and benefit from the morale/experience boost. You have to win a ground battle and hope the AI selects an AA unit for activation. The Soviet AA battalions have no path to guards, so they're stuck where they're at.

I agree putting them in front line armies is the only practical means to get those wins, since shooting down airplanes does nothing to that end.

Not sure though why you would spend 50 AP to pull a PVO regiment from a city. I'm sure there are better uses for those AP.



chaos45 -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/24/2018 4:29:56 PM)

M60- its only 1 AP if the Germans are within 5 hexes...so all the early cities your going to lose you can evacuate many of them intact with good timing. Esp like Odessa, Kiev, and Leningrad.



M60A3TTS -> RE: AVOID Game patch 1.11.03 at all COSTS!!!!! (7/24/2018 4:43:15 PM)

How long has this been in effect? [&:]



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