play balance (Full Version)

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bfcj -> play balance (8/5/2018 6:56:44 PM)

Just wondering what others thought about play balance in SC3. Ie, between two equally strong players, which side is more likely to achieve a victory? Discarding the higher likelihood of a draw, that is. And assuming that the game is allowed to continue to then end if necessary.



Rannug61 -> RE: play balance (8/5/2018 7:04:18 PM)

On the highest level of gaming axis has a advantage but for the majority of players the allies is easier to play and win with.



bfcj -> RE: play balance (8/17/2018 12:41:02 PM)

Not sure that I agree with the "highest level" thing. I don't consider myself at that level, and my experience has been that if I play the Axis it's not hard to win, but if I play the Allies (against a decent opponent) I have to be more careful. Axis are certainly favored w/respect to actual history, though I suppose there'd be no point in playing if an Allied victory was all but assured. Still I think the balance could be adjusted in favor of the Allies.



Rannug61 -> RE: play balance (8/17/2018 1:51:36 PM)

I'm definitively not on the "highest level" myself but hopefully a bit better then the average player. Start a game as Axis and I'll take on the Allies and let's see how it goes.
The game should be balanced and that forces Bill and Hubert to make the Axis way stronger then they where historically. I think it's close to being balanced but there could be a limit on (tele)operating units. Specially how Germany can move the whole Luftwaffe from Russia/Iraq to France in one turn and when the job is done move them all back again. One can make it more expensive or simply put a hard limit on the number of units that can be operated per turn and that number can be linked to the logistics tech.



bfcj -> RE: play balance (8/17/2018 2:08:58 PM)

Will do!

If I recall correctly, in the original Third Reich board game there was a limit on the number of strategic redeployment moves a nation (side?) could make in a turn. Though I think they were free, whereas in SC3 the associated costs should serve to limit it to some degree.

Perfectly balancing a game of this size and duration would be a monumental (if not impossible) task, requiring thousands of hours of play-testing, and I don't fault anyone for coming in shy of perfection. I just wondered what the general consensus was on which side the (inevitable) imbalance lies, and in which areas.

I personally think that it is too easy for the Axis to waltz through NA and the mideast.



KorutZelva -> RE: play balance (8/17/2018 11:04:08 PM)

The current tourney yield interesting result. Admittedly, I haven't played a lot of game with people outside the tourney but it seem to me that the level of play is representative of the SC3 universe.

Total victory:
Allies: 16
Axis: 12

Pretty close. Let's see what happens if we remove the victories by the players two best players.

Total victory:
Allies: 13
Axis: 5

Suddenly it seems the Axis is struggling outside the highest level of play with just two dudes accounting for more than 50% of Axis victories.




bfcj -> RE: play balance (8/18/2018 1:18:08 AM)

That is certainly interesting. Is that standard campaign? With standard victory conditions?



PvtBenjamin -> RE: play balance (8/18/2018 11:39:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rannug61

On the highest level of gaming axis has a advantage but for the majority of players the allies is easier to play and win with.



This is a serious evaluation of parity.

The tournament was I'm sure good fun but the results are irrelevant. Many of the players had less than 10 games under their belt. The games best player Sugar never played a game as Allies against a skilled player that went the duration. He played one against IG who is a good player but IG resigned in 5 days.



Sugar -> RE: play balance (8/18/2018 11:55:45 AM)

Seems to be obviously typical for our modern times to hear only what one wants to hear. I won all my games, including the Allies, and also against the best.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: play balance (8/18/2018 11:59:25 AM)

Sugar

How about you play Rannug here as Allies and AAR the game. If he plays seriously and you win as Allies I will never question the parity again.

I'm not trying to be a jerk I just think the results would be interesting.



Sugar -> RE: play balance (8/18/2018 12:29:50 PM)

You can`t judge balancing on 1 match. Even on equal lvls you won`t find a difference between p.e. 48:52; luck could fill the gap.

The strategic advantage of the Axis is the inner line, and there's no way to avoid it within game mechanics, except placing Germany on an island. But there are ways to get around this issue, you just have to find out how.








bfcj -> RE: play balance (8/18/2018 1:42:03 PM)

I think it's probably close enough that the significantly stronger player is going to win regardless. But if you had to play yourself, which side would you pick?

The deployment thing is a little unrealistic -- moving have a dozen armies from the front lines in eastern Russia to the front lines in France in a week. The logistical situation in the USSR would have made that impossible. But then the long-range amphibious transports the US employs are a bit of a stretch also.



Christolos -> RE: play balance (8/18/2018 3:02:42 PM)

From the PBEM games I have played so far and from some of the statements above, it would seem that it may be easier to win as the Allies, if at the intermediate to advanced level of Allied playability and familiarity with the game, when playing an Axis player who is at the beginner to the intermediate level of Axis playability and familiarity with the game.

I would say that I have had an easier time winning with the Allies, except against a very strong Axis player...and have yet to win a game as the Axis against good Allied players. I can of course easily win as the Axis or the Allies against the AI. I would say that I am at the intermediate level of play with the Allies, and somewhere in between a beginner and intermediate player as the Axis.

C



PvtBenjamin -> RE: play balance (8/21/2018 9:48:13 PM)

The conundrum is the top 10% has an advantage as Axis, but its much more challenging for everyone else.


Great game, enjoy it.



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