Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (Full Version)

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brucemo -> Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/9/2018 12:43:46 AM)

I'm curious to know if what I see people do here will be possible to replicate.

As an example, turn 1 normal difficulty campaign game, players often move armored troops to 53, 34 to attack Riga.

I have seen people take Riga with one panzer division and this seems impossible even if you add support troops to the division and run the HQ up there. As an example of this, see the AAR sillyflower vs BrianG from late 2015.

If you run two of them there, both with support troops added, there is still a chance that an attack on Riga will fail.

Did it used to be possible to take Riga with one Panzer division? Did attacking with two sometimes fail in the past? Am I just not seeing AAR's where there was a debacle there?

Is there a magic answer involving aircraft or something?



thedoctorking -> RE: Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/9/2018 3:43:54 AM)

I don't think I've ever had the nerve to try with one. Two is not always sufficient.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/9/2018 5:25:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brucemo

I'm curious to know if what I see people do here will be possible to replicate.

As an example, turn 1 normal difficulty campaign game, players often move armored troops to 53, 34 to attack Riga.

I have seen people take Riga with one panzer division and this seems impossible even if you add support troops to the division and run the HQ up there. As an example of this, see the AAR sillyflower vs BrianG from late 2015.

If you run two of them there, both with support troops added, there is still a chance that an attack on Riga will fail.

Did it used to be possible to take Riga with one Panzer division? Did attacking with two sometimes fail in the past? Am I just not seeing AAR's where there was a debacle there?

Is there a magic answer involving aircraft or something?


You can take Riga with one. Taking it with 2 is guaranteed.



SparkleyTits -> RE: Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/9/2018 5:26:20 AM)

I try to take Riga with one panzer
If the first one fails it's two attacks then send another to finish the job

It's never ended in me not taking Riga so seems fine to me unless I have been incredibly lucky somehow?
It means you have another plausible panzer in a much better position for turn 2 which is a great advantage



brucemo -> RE: Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/9/2018 6:35:46 AM)

Okay, I get it, thank you. You're running one to Riga, hitting it, and if that fails you try again with two. If you clear enough you can get to the attack hex with 4 MP.

One way you end up with a Pz in Riga and a free Pz, and the other way you end up with a Pz next to Riga and another one in it.

The conservative way you end up with one in it and one a knight's move SE or two hexes E.

I've never seen Riga fall on the first one though.

I'm willing to scum save but I feel bad about it, and if I couldn't, I'd think it was a pretty nasty roll of the dice.



MarauderPL -> RE: Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/9/2018 8:59:16 AM)

PLay against the AI and scumsave as much as you like, extensive trial&error is the best (and the only reasonable?) way to working the turn 1 opening out.



chaos45 -> RE: Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/9/2018 1:06:30 PM)

The main change in the opening turn is now the germans can do better than they ever did in the past....both in distance gained, soviet units defacto encircled, and soviet air losses.

Its really compounded to make the soviet start vs this opening an almost impossible task, especially with the improved german logistics where they can now effectively supply assault deep into Russia very early on with proper rail network building.

It used to be the soviet players could use distance to buy some time for virtually having no army in the early game...that is no longer possible in the recent editions of the game.



MarauderPL -> RE: Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/9/2018 1:19:24 PM)

Has that changed? Or was it always there, but not yet discovered?



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/9/2018 3:09:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL

Has that changed? Or was it always there, but not yet discovered?


All of what Chaos45 said has been in the game. It is just now that some Germans can milk the system even more. For instance, the Germans can push the coastal ports in the South and have very good supply. Few Germans do it but when more and more do start doing this it will show what is possible. All of that begins at Odessa and as the Soviets playing a good German you "will not" have the forces to defend Odessa properly because of the super extended Lvov pocket.

Chaos45 is correct too that every item in the game for the Soviets is accentuated by the Lvov pocket loses. The recovery for the Soviets really does not start until turn 10 from the 1st turn and those are just drops in a Ocean against a good German. That is assuming the Soviets don't make too many more mistakes the turns prior.. But if you throw in the Port jumping in the South you could pretty much be past Stalino and close to Rostov area turn 8-9.

Granted I am talking only about the top percentage of German players. But if I did an AAR showing how to do the Port jumping after a Super Extended Lvov pocket then more Soviets are going to lose their Southern industry than ever before after the rest of the Germans see how it is done.

Now don't get me wrong, I think the game is becoming more balanced all the time. Yes there are some items that need to be addressed which the Matrix team does a wonderful job of taking care of. But all of these take time.



beender -> RE: Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/9/2018 4:18:03 PM)

I thought it was pretty obvious that ports were good supply sources and should be fully made use of.

As for Riga, using one panzer is fine so long as you can attack twice. It never failed both times in my case. Of course don't forget bombing, ground support, pioneer, etc.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/9/2018 4:34:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

I thought it was pretty obvious that ports were good supply sources and should be fully made use of.

As for Riga, using one panzer is fine so long as you can attack twice. It never failed both times in my case. Of course don't forget bombing, ground support, pioneer, etc.


Obvious it not so much for everyone all the time.

You really don't even need bombing or ground support if you have the correct SU's attached on the attack on Riga.



thedoctorking -> RE: Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/9/2018 8:29:40 PM)

How long does it take to repair a port so it can be a supply source? Is there any way to accelerate this? I have not seen Germans being able to supply from ports before winter 1941-42.

Can Sea of Azov ports be sources of supply before the Germans capture Crimea and cross the Kerch Straights?



Telemecus -> RE: Has opening turn balance changed a lot in the past few years? (8/10/2018 8:40:39 AM)

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4302288&mpage=1



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