Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (Full Version)

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dave sindel -> Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/23/2018 7:18:45 PM)

It is June of 1942 in my 2nd PBEM game. Through a combination of Saratoga “reacting to enemy carriers”, low experience levels of my pilots [they can’t hit anything] , bad luck, poor play on my part, and excellent play on my opponents part, I have managed to lose 4 USN CV’s. Hornet is badly damaged and will probably burn up on the way to Pearl Harbor. CV Wasp has not yet arrived on map. 2 British CV’s are in port repairing damage incurred defending Cocos Island. At this moment the only active flight deck on the entire map is CVE Long Island, with a whopping 16 plane capacity.

To borrow Canoerebel’s description of John III as an “inveterate raider”, I would definitely apply that moniker to my opponent as well. The whole game has seen him using his CV’s in small groups spread all over the southern Pacific and Indian Oceans, and the Coral Sea. Now he has complete freedom of movement without any fear of Allied CV’s stopping him.

I’m committed to continuing the game, although I fully realize that the next 12-18 months won’t be a lot of fun for the Allies.

My question to AFB’s: How would you proceed ? Would you accept the challenge of playing without carriers for a year or more? Or would you say “let’s call this one a loss and start over” ?

My question to JFB’s: Is this a JFB’s dream scenario ? Or would the lack of meaningful opposition at sea minimize the challenge of playing Japan?





Lecivius -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/23/2018 7:23:48 PM)

I faced the same situation, because I hosed it up as well. I played on until the Hawaiian Islands had 0 supply, as did Ceylon. My opponent literally hit virtually every single convoy until I ran out of AK's. You will get your carries back if you can hang on. You don't get your logistical train back [;)]



Canoerebel -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/23/2018 7:50:12 PM)

Many Allied players have faced that dilemma and emerged a far better player for soldiering through.

It will be tough for a few turns, as it always is following a debacle. But soon enough, your equilibrium returns, you find fun things to work on and look forward to, and you figure out how to advance the Allied cause without carrier parity.

Work your subs - both patrolling and mining - and look forward to that distant, rarified day they do something devilish to an enemy capital ship.

More than anything, work on your logistics - fuel and supply to key bases that you're building to maximum size. Make sure all that work will be in the theater where you plan later major, sustained actions.

Get your assets lined up - some day, you will advance in major ways, taking new bases, building them, etc. You'll need supply and fuel and engineers and base forces.

And there's pilot training.

In other words, there are many things the Allied player can do to profitably use the down time until you're ready to attack. Find out how to play with the assets you have. You'll be glad you did, because you'll learn alot. And you'll emerge from this a far better player.

Good luck!



GetAssista -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/23/2018 8:03:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dave sindel
My question to JFB’s: Is this a JFB’s dream scenario ? Or would the lack of meaningful opposition at sea minimize the challenge of playing Japan?

So, Japan can go and capture some more island real estate unopposed. Big deal... JFBs then have to man and supply it and eventually give it up for nothing anyway.
And non-island real estate like Oz or India which can be indeed decisive (for Allied morale mostly) do not depend on carriers



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/23/2018 8:22:52 PM)

To the other comments I would add that Burma, China, and India don't depend on carriers, or really naval forces at all in this era. And if he's tearing his carriers around he might not be that aware of the fuel limitations of 1944-45 for Japan. Let him run around.



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 1:44:16 AM)

As a homebrewer of 32 years, my first reaction is: Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew.

Your opponent is now undoubtedly suffering from victory disease. Use that to your advantage. Also, there must be a couple of AARs where this happened that might provide some good ideas (someone else can chime in which ones).

Maybe get back to us later with how you are doing.

Good luck!

Cheers,
CB



Yaab -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 6:22:15 AM)

- Sir, I see you have no CV. We will have to substitute you with a sub.



Barb -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 9:21:07 AM)

Allies faced similar situation in November 1942 (with damaged USS Enterprispe being the only CV available), in the middle of their first offensive operation (Guadalcanal), yet they managed.

The simple rule here is - "Hit him where he ain't" - and use your land based air as your striking force as well as umbrella (like MacArthur did on New Guinea). Not sure of what is your total geographic position or distribution of forces, you can sure find places where you can use the slow but steady advance by ground. Burma, New Guinea are prime examples. You just advance a step, build a base, smack everything around by your air and advance next step. Use CAP, LRCAP, light forces (CL/DD/PT/SS) to screen your movement at sea. Avoid confrontation with the KB, or fleets going to bombard your bases. Use Paradrops, use C-47s, use subs, use PBYs, ...

It is no big game if Japanese opponent manages to sunk 5 LCIs, or destroy 20 planes on a base, or even close that base for a time. He wont be able to do it continuously - or if he intends to you can make him pay for it... little by little step by step.
You can also focus on other means - like prosecute every sub contact to exhaustion in your rear areas, try to catch his raiders if they are deep enough, etc. A "small game" :)



dave sindel -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 11:28:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Allies faced similar situation in November 1942 (with damaged USS Enterprispe being the only CV available), in the middle of their first offensive operation (Guadalcanal), yet they managed.

The simple rule here is - "Hit him where he ain't" - and use your land based air as your striking force as well as umbrella (like MacArthur did on New Guinea). Not sure of what is your total geographic position or distribution of forces, you can sure find places where you can use the slow but steady advance by ground. Burma, New Guinea are prime examples. You just advance a step, build a base, smack everything around by your air and advance next step. Use CAP, LRCAP, light forces (CL/DD/PT/SS) to screen your movement at sea. Avoid confrontation with the KB, or fleets going to bombard your bases. Use Paradrops, use C-47s, use subs, use PBYs, ...

It is no big game if Japanese opponent manages to sunk 5 LCIs, or destroy 20 planes on a base, or even close that base for a time. He wont be able to do it continuously - or if he intends to you can make him pay for it... little by little step by step.
You can also focus on other means - like prosecute every sub contact to exhaustion in your rear areas, try to catch his raiders if they are deep enough, etc. A "small game" :)


Geographically, I feel pretty good about my position. This latest carrier battle occurred in the Marshalls. I have Wotje, Maloleap, Ailinglaplap, in Allied hands. All of the Gilberts are mine, as is Makin. Nauru, Ocean, Kusaie are mine as well. I have about 250 AV on Lunga, with an ongoing struggle to keep them supplied. I'm using a bunch of subs and transport planes for that purpose. I have repelled two invasions at Cocos Island and continue to build up there. That will be my eventual launching pad into the DEI. I'll post a screenshot of the strategic map.



dave sindel -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 11:38:55 AM)

Here's the strategic map.

[image]local://upfiles/20177/3FDB32F3C3B14D45879D54A24AC34A65.jpg[/image]



inqistor -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 11:39:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

The simple rule here is - "Hit him where he ain't" - and use your land based air as your striking force as well as umbrella (like MacArthur did on New Guinea). Not sure of what is your total geographic position or distribution of forces, you can sure find places where you can use the slow but steady advance by ground. Burma, New Guinea are prime examples. You just advance a step, build a base, smack everything around by your air and advance next step. Use CAP, LRCAP, light forces (CL/DD/PT/SS) to screen your movement at sea. Avoid confrontation with the KB, or fleets going to bombard your bases. Use Paradrops, use C-47s, use subs, use PBYs, ...

Yeah, do what the man said. Just wait till you have planes replacements full, for few months of fight (and buy back destroyed DB units). If you land somewhere, land in several bases, so Japan can not close all of them, and bring LOTS of AA.
Generally attack, where his CV are not, and make sure, that you land in range of your fighters LRCAP. And where you can spring your fleet, and back before dawn under land CAP protection.



dave sindel -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 11:41:49 AM)

This map is a couple of turns old. Ambon just fell last turn, on his 3rd attempt.



zuluhour -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 12:03:53 PM)

Looking at your map I am envious. No incursion to OZ. Your still in the DEI. The Marshals and Gilbert's still green. friendly bases
in the Solomon's.India still free. Study surface combat. Think about what you can do with it. If he has victory disease you should
be able to lure him into an LBA - surface sandwich and hurt him somewhere. If he is conservative now it buys you time. That's your
asset. Plus one to Dan, extra incentive to concentrate on logistics and planning.



Encircled -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 12:34:37 PM)

Just echoing what everyone is saying.

Make sure you keep India and Oz safe as the bases for your counter attack

He can't sink them!



Lokasenna -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 2:12:11 PM)

You'll be fine. Be careful about your convoys and send them extra far out of harm's way.

Look at the silver lining: now you don't have to plan any naval battles for a year. Lots of turns should be quick on your end [;)].



dave sindel -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 2:13:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

Looking at your map I am envious. No incursion to OZ. Your still in the DEI. The Marshals and Gilbert's still green. friendly bases
in the Solomon's.India still free. Study surface combat. Think about what you can do with it. If he has victory disease you should
be able to lure him into an LBA - surface sandwich and hurt him somewhere. If he is conservative now it buys you time. That's your
asset. Plus one to Dan, extra incentive to concentrate on logistics and planning.


He didnt hit Pearl Harbor at game start, so I still have most of the old BB's intact. The turn after the carrier battle, I was able to intercept his CVTF with 7 of them that had been on a bombardment mission to Maloleap. They still had enough ammo left to chance a surface encounter, and so I tried that and my interception actually worked. I sank Shokaku and Ryujo, and badly damaged Yamato. It was a bit of revenge. It was an interesting combat to watch in that 7 old US BB's vs only Yamato didnt sink her. The 14in shells bounced off in most cases. I only saw 2 hits penetrate. 2 of my BB's were badly damaged and sank on the way back to Pearl.



dave sindel -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 2:15:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You'll be fine. Be careful about your convoys and send them extra far out of harm's way.

Look at the silver lining: now you don't have to plan any naval battles for a year. Lots of turns should be quick on your end [;)].


Good point Loka !



Yaab -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 3:40:03 PM)

Dave Sindel, brace yourself for the Portland invasion then...



Chickenboy -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 4:24:23 PM)

Good advice above. From the JFB perspective: it's not necessarily a 'dream' setup. Fragmenting KB by running small 'bitsa' IJN CV groups around is asking to-sooner or later-get nailed by an concentrated Allied response. Unless he will achieve auto-victory on January 1, 1943 by sinking so many of your ships (unlikely since he hasn't taken advantage of important land base points), you'll get by.

Avoid the temptation to throw singleton CVs at him while you recouperate. Identify a theater where he is raiding with small CV forces injudiciously, concentrate your LBA and CV strength there and start nibbling around the edges. Upgrade your airframes. TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN your pilots. Bid your time. You'll get through it.



dave sindel -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 4:36:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Dave Sindel, brace yourself for the Portland invasion then...


After reading that AAR, my next turn I sent a US Infantry Division to Portland to camp out and build forts....



dave sindel -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 4:55:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Good advice above. From the JFB perspective: it's not necessarily a 'dream' setup. Fragmenting KB by running small 'bitsa' IJN CV groups around is asking to-sooner or later-get nailed by an concentrated Allied response. Unless he will achieve auto-victory on January 1, 1943 by sinking so many of your ships (unlikely since he hasn't taken advantage of important land base points), you'll get by.

Avoid the temptation to throw singleton CVs at him while you recouperate. Identify a theater where he is raiding with small CV forces injudiciously, concentrate your LBA and CV strength there and start nibbling around the edges. Upgrade your airframes. TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN your pilots. Bid your time. You'll get through it.


Thanks for the input from a JFB perspective. Your idea about a concentrated Allied response is what I was trying to accomplish and it got me in trouble initially. I had 3 CV's that were undetected and just about to hit one of his small groups when CV Saratoga reacted and revealed her presence. She got hammered, and didnt get any hits on his carrier group. Then Enterprise and Yorktown moved past his group during a night move and didnt find them during the search phase - but he found them, and hammered them as well.



dave sindel -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/24/2018 7:33:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Many Allied players have faced that dilemma and emerged a far better player for soldiering through.

It will be tough for a few turns, as it always is following a debacle. But soon enough, your equilibrium returns, you find fun things to work on and look forward to, and you figure out how to advance the Allied cause without carrier parity.

Work your subs - both patrolling and mining - and look forward to that distant, rarified day they do something devilish to an enemy capital ship.

More than anything, work on your logistics - fuel and supply to key bases that you're building to maximum size. Make sure all that work will be in the theater where you plan later major, sustained actions.

Get your assets lined up - some day, you will advance in major ways, taking new bases, building them, etc. You'll need supply and fuel and engineers and base forces.

And there's pilot training.

In other words, there are many things the Allied player can do to profitably use the down time until you're ready to attack. Find out how to play with the assets you have. You'll be glad you did, because you'll learn alot. And you'll emerge from this a far better player.

Good luck!




Dan, thanks for the insights and the guidance. I appreciate your advice.



Yaab -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/26/2018 4:02:34 PM)

Let this song be the OST of your counterattack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD_l2OVVQsc



Anachro -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/26/2018 4:18:46 PM)

[image]https://i.imgur.com/LaQtAPf.png[/image]



dave sindel -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/26/2018 4:26:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

[image]https://i.imgur.com/LaQtAPf.png[/image]


Thanks for this poster, you may be spot on with this prediction. He took Ambon a couple turns ago, and has been bombing the daylights out of Koepang since.



Timotheus -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/27/2018 12:18:05 AM)

Am a newish player (not a complete noob) but here goes.


CV air TF: NEVER set react to enemy task forces as anything else than ZERO !!!!!!!
React to enemy is for SURFACE GROUPS ONLY !!!


Do not bomb from air ground troops (except in China as Japanese): total waste of materiel and pilots UNTIL you get overwhelming air force. Sweep then shut down enemy airbases.
Exception: When you want to slow down enemy LCU, when bombed they MIGHT switch from move to combat mode.

"The whole game has seen him using his CV’s in small groups spread all over the southern Pacific and Indian Oceans, and the Coral Sea. "

Learn the following Polish ([:D])proverb: 'nicht kleckern sondern klotzen'.

Loose translation: "Don't do weak punches, f**k them up gud !".

This was a tremendous opportunity for your CV pilots to get some free shots. I realize enemy CVL and CVE are a match and then some for beginning USA CV force but.....


Most important thing: as an Allied player, YOU CANNOT LOSE. PERIOD.

There is auto victory malarkey, but really, you get so much s**t in 1944, that you can brute force your s**t whenever and wherever you want. Don't forget to air CAP your stuff, though.

"Would you accept the challenge of playing without carriers for a year or more?"

Sure. CL + DD fast strike forces. Try to bleed his pilot pools. Again, you CAN'T lose as an Allied player, simply unpossible IMHO [:D]

Burma >> China, your schwerpunkt.
Bleed him in DEI.

If you up to it, invade NOT-100 island near Japan, rapidly develop it into airbase/fortress, and start strat bombing Japan for funsies.

Use subs to mine enemy ports. Japan does not have a lot of minesweepers, and can make a mistake of converting them to escorts huehuehue...

Also, subs. Subs are a nuissance in '42, a killer in '43, a catastrophe in '44.

Channel your inner Nemo121.



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/27/2018 1:26:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dave sindel

I had 3 CV's that were undetected and just about to hit one of his small groups when CV Saratoga reacted and revealed her presence. She got hammered, and didnt get any hits on his carrier group. Then Enterprise and Yorktown moved past his group during a night move and didnt find them during the search phase - but he found them, and hammered them as well.


A lot of AFBs like to pile their CVs into one or two TFs early on. I'm one of them. Even if you get coordination penalties, it's better than piecemeal reactions.

Cheers,
CB



Timotheus -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/27/2018 3:23:37 AM)

3 CV in 1 TF >> 4 separate CV in separate TF



rtoolooze -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/27/2018 12:45:39 PM)

"Most important thing: as an Allied player, YOU CANNOT LOSE. PERIOD."


I've been getting closer to finally buying this monster game, studying the manual, and tutorials. But after seeing this, it kinda took the wind out of my sails. Why play a game when you know who will win.
So no matter what, Japan can't win?



Lowpe -> RE: Mayday Mayday, The USN is on the brink of disaster. AFB Advice needed (8/27/2018 1:06:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtoolooze

So no matter what, Japan can't win?



Don't you believe it.[:-]



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