I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (Full Version)

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specie1 -> I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (8/28/2018 8:21:41 PM)

I am playing as Japan in my first PBEM game. It is May 1942 and one of my surface combat TFs detected the SS Tarpon and forced it to surface. It was then very quickly sunk.

I don't know why or how this happened. I would like to have it happen more often. Is there a way to do that?



HansBolter -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (8/28/2018 8:26:27 PM)

Its a somewhat random occurrence dependent on your doing sufficient damage to force it to surface without doing enough damage to sink it outright.

Actually, sinking them outright is preferable as they can and DO sometimes get torpedo hits on the attackers when they surface.

I had one German Uboat (its an Iroman scenario) sink two CAs when the escorting destroyer forced it to surface.



Mike Solli -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (8/28/2018 8:27:52 PM)

When you get the message that the sub "slipped beneath the waves", it's not a guarantee that it actually sank.



specie1 -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (8/28/2018 8:41:59 PM)

Thanks Mike,

I heard distinct sinking sounds afterwards that seemed to confirm it for me. Does that sound right?



Mike Solli -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (8/28/2018 8:55:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: specie1

Thanks Mike,

I heard distinct sinking sounds afterwards that seemed to confirm it for me. Does that sound right?


Probably, but there's a chance something else sank. I'd say she's headed home if she didn't sink. I recall only once that one of my subs survived. I suspect it's pretty rare to survive.



Timotheus -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (8/28/2018 9:12:04 PM)

Yeah, this game models everything.

I have read a few books on uboats, and there were instances when the sub was so damaged by depth charges that the skipper decided to surface to save the crew.

In fact, in Chicago, there is a real life uboat in the Museum of Science and Industry (and it is THE ONLY THING worth seeing in that place... well, it is fun getting lost in the mirror maze). USA captured this sub (and it's Enigma) in WW2. The "geniuses" in USNAVY wanted to destroy it in a live fire exercise [:@], but fortunately the guy who captured it became an admiral in the meantime, and having heard what the "geniuses" wanted to do took steps to preserve this piece of history...



AW1Steve -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (8/28/2018 9:18:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

Yeah, this game models everything.

I have read a few books on uboats, and there were instances when the sub was so damaged by depth charges that the skipper decided to surface to save the crew.

In fact, in Chicago, there is a real life uboat in the Museum of Science and Industry (and it is THE ONLY THING worth seeing in that place... well, it is fun getting lost in the mirror maze). USA captured this sub (and it's Enigma) in WW2. The "geniuses" in USNAVY wanted to destroy it in a live fire exercise [:@], but fortunately the guy who captured it became an admiral in the meantime, and having heard what the "geniuses" wanted to do took steps to preserve this piece of history...



Like most things , there is a little bit more to the story. There was a concern that due to agreements the USA MIGHT have to turn it over to the USSR for study. The same story with the I-400 class Japanese subs. Those subs were "accidently scuttled" before they could be turned over to the Russians. :0



Denniss -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (8/29/2018 7:27:30 AM)

A Type IX Uboot was unlikely to be of interest for the soviets, they were interested in the most modern subs like XXI/XXIII and I400



spence -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (8/29/2018 2:58:34 PM)

Like most things , there is a little bit more to the story.

By the time the US captured U-505, the Brits had already captured 2 U-boats and their Enigma Machines. IIRC the Germans added an extra rotor to the machine subsequently so for a time in early 1943 their U-boat comms were secure. Also in April 1943, a boarding team from USCGC Spencer got aboard U-175 as it was sinking (it was scuttled - the incident was covered by LIFE magazine with an interesting spread of photos).

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-175A/U-175.htm

(All kinds of neat stuff (photos, interrogation reports, etc) at this link



pontiouspilot -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (8/29/2018 3:24:38 PM)

This is not that uncommon. I see it at some point in most games. To me it means sub is kaput!



Lokasenna -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (8/29/2018 4:24:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: specie1

Thanks Mike,

I heard distinct sinking sounds afterwards that seemed to confirm it for me. Does that sound right?


Probably, but there's a chance something else sank. I'd say she's headed home if she didn't sink. I recall only once that one of my subs survived. I suspect it's pretty rare to survive.


The submarine sinking sound is different from the ship sinking sound.

If you heard a sub sinking sound immediately after this action, it's a goner. The only time you will hear a "mystery ship sinks" sound is during the "SHIPS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL" step in the turn. At no other time will an unknown ship sink "off screen."



spence -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/2/2018 6:30:29 PM)

quote:

Actually, sinking them outright is preferable as they can and DO sometimes get torpedo hits on the attackers when they surface. I had one German Uboat (its an Iroman scenario) sink two CAs when the escorting destroyer forced it to surface.



I am just curious. I recently had an IJN sub forced to the surface firing torpedoes left and right (more chances however small than if it had attacked during the sub attack phase), but not hitting anything fortunately (It did fire at a battleship several times)

Can anyone cite a historical incident where this occurred (manning the deck gun(s) I've heard of)?

Is the chance of scoring a torpedo hit decreased?




Lecivius -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/2/2018 6:54:49 PM)

I am not aware of any Japanese boats doing it, but US and German boats both have a history of not going without a fight.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/2/2018 8:43:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Can anyone cite a historical incident where this occurred (manning the deck gun(s) I've heard of)?

I don't know of any time it occurred in RL. This is another example where the original dev team of GG and Co. knew a lot about airplanes.

Launching a torpedo takes interactions of most essential systems: HP air, AC power, hydraulics. It takes coordination of the attack center and the TR. The TR can "launch" a fish alone, but it would be blind and run wherever the bow was pointing, +/- whatever that last gyro entry was on that fish. At an extreme up or down angle, probable with flooding bad enough to cause a battle surface, the TR wouldn't be able to do that much. Smoke ditto for other, obvious reasons not related to angle but more the torpedomen trying to breathe.

Subs live and survive underwater. A D/E did not surface except in extremis, normally to abandon ship. They were not worrying about fighting back, at least with torpedoes.

Is the chance of scoring a torpedo hit decreased?

In the game? Who knows. Maybe. In RL? There's basically zero chance of a hit. If the boat was outside arming run range then the degrees of accumulated error on a blind shot would make it essentially a random. Some variables, such as length and aspect of the target, its speed, its evasion capability, etc., but you're talking luck to the Nth degree.





LargeSlowTarget -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/2/2018 9:25:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

I am not aware of any Japanese boats doing it, but US and German boats both have a history of not going without a fight.


When the New Zealand corvettes Kiwi and Moa forced the Japanese submarine I-1 to the surface off Guadalcanal, the sub fought back with deck gun, AA machine guns and rifle fire. The Exec and the navigator even tried to board the Kiwi with Katana swords in their hands.



spence -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/2/2018 10:30:33 PM)

quote:

I am not aware of any Japanese boats doing it, but US and German boats both have a history of not going without a fight.


I am aware that there were incidents in the Atlantic involving hand to hand/small arms fire from the crews of US DDs and German Uboats subsequent to the ramming of the sub by the DD USS Buckley/U66 and USS Borie/U405). The U66 did fire a torpedo but it was initially sighted by USS Buckley while on the surface rather than subsequent to an emergency surfacing.

I've been going through the TROMs of IJN submarines one by one on Combined Fleet(.com) but it is tedious. The I-60 (turned I-164 "posthumously" (I guess) and the I-1 were forced to the surface and manned their guns in spite of heavy crew loss but neither fired torpedoes.



Lokasenna -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/3/2018 4:25:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

Actually, sinking them outright is preferable as they can and DO sometimes get torpedo hits on the attackers when they surface. I had one German Uboat (its an Iroman scenario) sink two CAs when the escorting destroyer forced it to surface.



I am just curious. I recently had an IJN sub forced to the surface firing torpedoes left and right (more chances however small than if it had attacked during the sub attack phase), but not hitting anything fortunately (It did fire at a battleship several times)

Can anyone cite a historical incident where this occurred (manning the deck gun(s) I've heard of)?

Is the chance of scoring a torpedo hit decreased?




I would imagine that it is lower simply because the standard submarine torpedo attack is a "surprise", while when the sub is surfaced the ships are aware and maneuvering. I would not be surprised if it was easier for a submerged sub to land a hit simply because of that.



spence -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/3/2018 5:30:13 PM)

Having gotten through the 2nd column and 3rd column of TROMs of the IJN submarines at Combinedfleet.com I find that I-8 and I-24 were forced to the surface and engaged the enemy (US) with guns but not with torpedoes. I-7 fought two surface actions but only with guns. It was on a supply run in the Aleutians so perhaps it didn't have torpedoes - although damaged in the first action it escaped into the fog - it was sunk in the second action somewhat later.

Interestingly, HMS Petard (a destroyer) launched 7 torpedoes one by one at the I-27 after forcing it to the surface with depth charges. Meanwhile HMS Palladin which also participated in the depth charge attacks was DIW (dead in the water) having struck a glancing blow on the submarine when trying to ram. The IJN fired no torpedoes but did try to engage with its guns. The 7th torpedo from HMS Petard hit the submarine and sank it.

The I-35 also was forced to the surface and attempted to man its guns but was sunk by ramming. It fired no torpedoes at its attackers after surfacing.



spence -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/4/2018 3:27:27 PM)

Finishing u the TROMs of IJN submarines I found no cases of a submarine being forced to the surface and subsequently firing torpedoes at its attackers BUT:

the uboatarchive.net has a record of exactly this thing happening during the final patrol of the U-371.

Not only that but the same site has photos of the attack, the previous torpedoing of USS Menges (same incident but not the one "aimed at" during the surface action. Of note is that the torpedo fired hit one of the attacking vessels AND that it was homing torpedo type.

In any case the whole file of the U-371 can be found at:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-371A/U-371.htm



Rising-Sun -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/4/2018 6:04:28 PM)

If the commander is highly aggressive, there a chance he will surface when low on torpedoes and using deck guns. Unless you hit a mine or seriously damage beyond repair.



spence -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/5/2018 1:07:24 AM)

quote:

If the commander is highly aggressive, there a chance he will surface when low on torpedoes and using deck guns. Unless you hit a mine or seriously damage beyond repair.


I know how the game works. My question has always been whether or not a particular game "mechanic" reflects reality. In the case of IJN submarines it seems that none of them ever fired torpedoes at their attackers after having been FORCED to surface because of damage

Using deck guns seems to have been the norm. It should be noted that the escorts who had depth charged the submarine to the surface got to shoot with any gun that would bear from the moment that the submarine surfaced. In most cases that was a whole bunch of guns but occasionally the submarine would surface so close to the escort that its main armament could not be depressed to bear on the submarine. In any case the result was (usually) that the submarine would be hit multiple times by relatively big guns before its gun crew had even gotten near their gun (along with a supply of ammunition). Thus it was that submarines always lost their confrontations with escorts once they were forced to the surface by depth charging/damage.

But since I checked the TROMs of all Japanese submarines (according to combinedfleet.com) and found NO INSTANCES of launching torpedoes at their attackers after being seriously damaged underwater I wondered if it had ever happened. It seems that U-371 singularly holds that honor (and although the "homing" torpedo hit it did not sink the Free French Corvette SENEGALAIS at which it was fired). Several IJN submarines were forced to the surface by damage but although they manned their deck guns (or attempted to) NONE of them fired their torpedoes.



m10bob -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/5/2018 3:04:46 PM)

Just more of the "chrome" we love in this game.


BTW...That sound clip of the sub commander yelling "Dive,Dive" is Clark Gable from "RUN SILENT,RUN DEEP".



Rising-Sun -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/5/2018 3:33:37 PM)

Well some commanders may think that boat isn't worth a torpedo and want to use deck gun instead. It did happen though.



Skyros -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/5/2018 3:47:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

If the commander is highly aggressive, there a chance he will surface when low on torpedoes and using deck guns. Unless you hit a mine or seriously damage beyond repair.


I know how the game works. My question has always been whether or not a particular game "mechanic" reflects reality. In the case of IJN submarines it seems that none of them ever fired torpedoes at their attackers after having been FORCED to surface because of damage

Using deck guns seems to have been the norm. It should be noted that the escorts who had depth charged the submarine to the surface got to shoot with any gun that would bear from the moment that the submarine surfaced. In most cases that was a whole bunch of guns but occasionally the submarine would surface so close to the escort that its main armament could not be depressed to bear on the submarine. In any case the result was (usually) that the submarine would be hit multiple times by relatively big guns before its gun crew had even gotten near their gun (along with a supply of ammunition). Thus it was that submarines always lost their confrontations with escorts once they were forced to the surface by depth charging/damage.

But since I checked the TROMs of all Japanese submarines (according to combinedfleet.com) and found NO INSTANCES of launching torpedoes at their attackers after being seriously damaged underwater I wondered if it had ever happened. It seems that U-371 singularly holds that honor (and although the "homing" torpedo hit it did not sink the Free French Corvette SENEGALAIS at which it was fired). Several IJN submarines were forced to the surface by damage but although they manned their deck guns (or attempted to) NONE of them fired their torpedoes.

Well Spence being that it was one of my subs, I have to say that is the first time I have seen a sub fire torpedoes when forced to surface and I have been playing this great game for nine years. Just be thankful he missed the Massachusetts because that video would now be my signature.[:D][8D]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/5/2018 6:42:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Well Spence being that it was one of my subs, I have to say that is the first time I have seen a sub fire torpedoes when forced to surface and I have been playing this great game for nine years. Just be thankful he missed the Massachusetts because that video would now be my signature.[:D][8D]


I've seen it scores of times.



spence -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/5/2018 7:25:44 PM)

quote:

I've seen it scores of times.


So have I and it seems that it is significantly more common than statistically justified by historical records. It did happen once though (U-371) so it would seem the possibility should exist as a very rare possibility rather than being commonplace for submarines which surface already suffering from significant damage.

And for SKYROS: Na-na--na-na-na; you missed[:D]

[:D][:D]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: I just forced a USN sub to surface - How? (10/5/2018 10:47:49 PM)

Yeah, but N.B. for the U-boat--homing torpedo.

I've fired torpedo tubes that were almost exactly the WWII design, and there's really no way a torpedoman could do it from a standing start if the compartment were flooding, filled with smoke, and at an angle. If the shutter and outer door were open, the tube flooded, the gyro spindles out, and there was still HP air and AC power, maybe. Once. An un-aimed snapshot. I've seen up to four salvos from surfaced subs in the game.

The thing is, any sub that CAN stay down WILL stay down. Surfacing near a skimmer gun platform is fatal. They're made to shoot guns; subs aren't. They have good FC systems; subs have MK I eyeballs. They roll some; subs roll a lot. And so forth. If a sub surfaces while heavily damaged it's to get the crew off. That's hard. Hatches are small and all but the bridge are vulnerable to sea state and flooding. If the crew is trying to unlimber deck guns and not trying to get over the side, the skimmers are justified in pouring in shells, and they will always win that one. If you want to go down with all hands you can stay under and sink. If you surface it's in the hope of saving some of the crew. Fighting back at all makes that doubtful.



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