IJN Float plane restraints (Full Version)

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MakeeLearn -> IJN Float plane restraints (9/2/2018 1:54:40 PM)

What are the historical "physical" restraints on the use of float planes on IJN subs and ships?

Could the Jake be used on any of the ships?



Mike Solli -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/2/2018 2:17:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

What are the historical "physical" restraints on the use of float planes on IJN subs and ships?

Could the Jake be used on any of the ships?


I use them on anything except subs.



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/2/2018 3:32:40 PM)

Historically, it was used on cruisers and tenders; I haven't read anywhere that they were too big for a specific class of ship (subs of course excluded)


Float carrying subs should only carry specifically designed planes and no spare/ reserve



BBfanboy -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/2/2018 4:09:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Historically, it was used on cruisers and tenders; I haven't read anywhere that they were too big for a specific class of ship (subs of course excluded)


Float carrying subs should only carry specifically designed planes and no spare/ reserve

Right. The sub FPs had to be dismantled (wings and floats) to fit in the watertight hangar tube.



GetAssista -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/2/2018 4:37:14 PM)

Historically Jakes were used on heavy cruisers, Yamato class BBs, Agano class light cruisers and tenders. So if you are strict you can't put them on other battleships (which operated Daves, Alfs and Petes) or other light cruisers (Alfs)
Subs are out of question of course, only Glen could fit into hangars. And Seiran for those i-400 class



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/4/2018 3:38:11 PM)

Reading a bit more into this, battleship Haruna also received Jakes; I believe they prefered to used F1Ms in battleships for convenience, and not because they can't fit Jakes.
F1M was an observation float plane, something not truly modeled in WITP-AE; and a more versatile plane; more maneuverable, better armed


from http://www.combinedfleet.com/haruna.htm

IJN Battleship HARUNA:
Tabular Record of Movement

25 February-1 April 1943:
Dry-docked at Sasebo. A Type 21 radar and Type 3 radar detectors are installed. The aircraft complement is changed to one Aichi E13A Type 0 and two Mitsubishi F1M Type 0s.



rustysi -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/4/2018 7:53:40 PM)

quote:

Right. The sub FPs had to be dismantled (wings and floats) to fit in the watertight hangar tube.


I think more so the reason than their size, but yes, no Jake's on subs. Or any other float plane, for that matter.



fodder -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/5/2018 10:54:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

What are the historical "physical" restraints on the use of float planes on IJN subs and ships?

Could the Jake be used on any of the ships?


First to answer the original post.

The only physical restraint for placing any aircraft on a submarine is the diameter of the propeller.

There are no restraints on which floatplanes can/are placed on warships. The reason why some ships still carried Daves and Alfs is simple, there were not enough Pete's and Jakes to go around.

Sub carried aircraft:

The only requirement to placing an aircraft on a sub is that it's attached propeller fits through the hanger door and that all structures on the aircraft (wings, floats, stabilizers) be folded or removed to fit within the diameter of it's own propeller. Any aircraft that meets this requirement could be placed on a sub. As far as subs go it's not what will fit that counts, it's how quickly you can launch and recover the aircraft that matters.

You can dismantle a Pete and place it on a sub, but it would take you hours to reassemble and launch it. NOT practical.

To operate from a sub you need to be able to launch and recover the aircraft quickly. The Japanese had a long line of sub launched bi-winged aircraft for testing out ways to assemble and disassemble aircraft quickly. Finally in 1936 The Wantanabe navy type 96 E9W1 Allied code name "Slim" was made the standard and all subs were upgraded to carry it. A good crew could launch it in minute and thirty seconds.

In 1940 when the Glen came along, (the first mono winged sub launched floatplane) it was adopted as the standard and all subs were to be upgraded to carry it. As of Dec of 1941 these upgrades were not complete and there were still 4 or 5 subs that were still outfitted to carry "Slim". (Slim should be in game)

Now for what else could be launched from a sub in the war or the game.

Aichi m6A1 Seiran is the obvious answer, but it is not a replacement or an up grade for the Glen.

Glen was a recon plane and the Seiran was an attack aircraft.

If you are looking for an aircraft to place on subs to replace your Glens, then Norm is your best bet. It's outboard floats were retractable and it's main center float was already detachable. Like the Seiran you would only need only to brake the wings at the first frame out board of the fuselage and fold them back along it. No problem


(note to self for my mod))
Subs should have to go through an upgarde to carry different aircraft. Different aircraft need unique internal hanger storage set ups and tooling to launch quickly.



GetAssista -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/5/2018 5:13:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder
The only physical restraint for placing any aircraft on a submarine is the diameter of the propeller.

Umm, propeller? It is like the easiest piece of plane to be taken off apart from guns which require even more frequent repair/replacement. Limiting width is the base of wings-fuselage cross where the center of structure al integrity is. And the height of tail fin / canopy



fodder -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/5/2018 9:29:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder
The only physical restraint for placing any aircraft on a submarine is the diameter of the propeller.

Umm, propeller? It is like the easiest piece of plane to be taken off apart from guns which require even more frequent repair/replacement. Limiting width is the base of wings-fuselage cross where the center of structure al integrity is. And the height of tail fin / canopy


Yes propeller. On launch as soon as the hanger door is cracked open the pilot will start the engine. He has less then two minutes to warm up and run whatever engine checks he can before he's shot off the end of the catapult.

The aircraft is pushed out of the hanger and readied with the propeller turning.



Insano -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/6/2018 3:13:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder
The only physical restraint for placing any aircraft on a submarine is the diameter of the propeller.

Umm, propeller? It is like the easiest piece of plane to be taken off apart from guns which require even more frequent repair/replacement. Limiting width is the base of wings-fuselage cross where the center of structure al integrity is. And the height of tail fin / canopy


Yes propeller. On launch as soon as the hanger door is cracked open the pilot will start the engine. He has less then two minutes to warm up and run whatever engine checks he can before he's shot off the end of the catapult.

The aircraft is pushed out of the hanger and readied with the propeller turning.


Also is the propeller variable pitch? So presumably not quite as simple as bolt on bolt off?



BBfanboy -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/6/2018 7:06:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Insano


quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder
The only physical restraint for placing any aircraft on a submarine is the diameter of the propeller.

Umm, propeller? It is like the easiest piece of plane to be taken off apart from guns which require even more frequent repair/replacement. Limiting width is the base of wings-fuselage cross where the center of structure al integrity is. And the height of tail fin / canopy


Yes propeller. On launch as soon as the hanger door is cracked open the pilot will start the engine. He has less then two minutes to warm up and run whatever engine checks he can before he's shot off the end of the catapult.

The aircraft is pushed out of the hanger and readied with the propeller turning.


Also is the propeller variable pitch? So presumably not quite as simple as bolt on bolt off?

Pretty sure variable pitch props were a post-war innovation. I never heard reference to one in all the WWII books I have read. I think the advent of turboprop engines made the VP prop necessary.



821Bobo -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/6/2018 7:55:54 AM)

quote:

Pretty sure variable pitch props were a post-war innovation. I never heard reference to one in all the WWII books I have read. I think the advent of turboprop engines made the VP prop necessary.


Yes, post war, post WWI. AFAIK all WWII planes were already using it.



GetAssista -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/6/2018 10:27:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder
The only physical restraint for placing any aircraft on a submarine is the diameter of the propeller.

Umm, propeller? It is like the easiest piece of plane to be taken off apart from guns which require even more frequent repair/replacement. Limiting width is the base of wings-fuselage cross where the center of structure al integrity is. And the height of tail fin / canopy


Yes propeller. On launch as soon as the hanger door is cracked open the pilot will start the engine. He has less then two minutes to warm up and run whatever engine checks he can before he's shot off the end of the catapult.

The aircraft is pushed out of the hanger and readied with the propeller turning.

Oy, how would you manage wings then? It is not like they were fully automated and snapped in place on the running plane.
Anyway, here's how Glen was stored

[image]local://upfiles/32892/787535AB036A4BF4B6EE1BC66FF85D18.jpg[/image]



Disco Duck -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/6/2018 11:31:14 AM)

https://www.navalhistory.org/2010/11/04/1st-seaplane-launch-from-submarine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_aircraft_carrier



fodder -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/6/2018 3:08:34 PM)

Pretty sure I'm quoting what the pilots and crews said how they did things out of this book. If you have a better source, please let me know what it is, I'd be happy to read it.



[image]local://upfiles/34736/EDE321B2F53C4A82BA265EF692F08282.jpg[/image]



BillBrown -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/6/2018 3:53:55 PM)

From Wiki, so be careful:

The first practical controllable-pitch propeller for aircraft was introduced in 1932.[5] French firm Ratier pioneered variable-pitch propellers of various designs from 1928 onwards, relying on a special ball bearing helicoidal ramp at the root of the blades for easy operation.



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/6/2018 4:59:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

From Wiki, so be careful:

The first practical controllable-pitch propeller for aircraft was introduced in 1932.[5] French firm Ratier pioneered variable-pitch propellers of various designs from 1928 onwards, relying on a special ball bearing helicoidal ramp at the root of the blades for easy operation.


By the time of the battle of england, all modern fighter planes were using variable pitch of some sort.
I know because I got into WW2 flight simulators (IL-2, DCS, etC) [:D] [;)]

Just check wikipedia for Hurricane:
Hurricane Mk I
First production version, with fabric-covered wings, a wooden two-bladed, fixed-pitch propeller (first 435) or three blade two -pitch propeller, powered by the 1,030 hp (770 kW) Rolls-Royce Merlin Mk II (first 364) or III engines and armed with eight .303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns. Produced between 1937 and 1939.

Hurricane Mk I (revised)
A revised Hurricane Mk I series built with a de Havilland or Rotol constant speed metal propeller (from mid 1940), metal-covered wings, armour and other improvements. A total of 4,200 mark I were built, 1,924 by Hawker, 1,850 by Gloster Aircraft Company and 426 by Canadian Car and Foundry between December 1937 and July 1941. The Canadian Car and Foundry Hurricanes were shipped to England to be fitted with engines.


It started with fixed pitch, then moved to 2-pitch options (either fine or coarse) then moving to constant pitch, where the pilot controls it through RPM
this is an explanation from IL2- Cliffs of Dover sim game:
[image]local://upfiles/41287/10D222D1C91149A9A4B98E858065A96B.jpg[/image]



BillBrown -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/6/2018 7:37:06 PM)

So why did you have to quote my post?

Is there some factual error in my post?



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (9/6/2018 8:21:56 PM)

No, it was the last post, that is it [;)]



Dili -> RE: IJN Float plane restraints (10/1/2018 9:04:42 PM)

Catapults are also limit to what you can launch from it. Not every catapult model is equal and has same power. Also nearby gun blast, stability and obviously space.


I usually respect the type for combat ships - submarines the foldable E14, for combat ships DAVE>PETE and ALF>JAKE as they are. For AV is a bit different since they can be operated from sea and not from ship so if i find necessary i upgrade a Pete or Dave to Jake.
Unfortunately in game who edited the FP's capabilities made the PETE worse than it was with no 60kg bombs.

And of course there is no https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watanabe_E9W either.



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