Soviet industry pointers (Full Version)

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xhoel -> Soviet industry pointers (9/9/2018 7:35:44 PM)

As an Axis player I want to ask some of the more veteran players on the forum (Soviets preferably) if losing ARM and HI in 1941 has any major effect on the following years. I used to think that it is good to capture as much industry as possible but looking on some of the AARs I have noticed that even if the Soviets lose quite a lot of ARM and HI it doesn't seem to hurt them much. So is that worth pursuing? Comments are always appreciated.



Telemecus -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/9/2018 8:41:56 PM)

It is probably still valid that as Soviets you need to save some threshold of arms and heavy factories - but I take it your question is having satisfied this condition is it even more advantageous to maximise the number you save. Soviet veterans may be able to give a more authoritative answer - and in particular I hope EwaldvonKleist can post on this as they have been researching this very topic. But the answer seems to be no.

i) If you save too many arms factories relative to your heavy factories in effect they are wasted - you cannot get the supplies to support what your arms factories can produce (I am told there is too much resource production off-map even to ever consider the analogous case of too many heavy factories for them)
ii) If you save too many heavy factories relative to the manpower you can enlist in effect they are wasted - you cannot get the men and equipment plus arms production to use up all the supplies.

Given that the opportunity cost for evacuating factories is usually less strategic transport for your armed forces in 1941 when you are short of it, there is a real downside of evacuating too much industry.

The conclusion I have read from other Soviet players is that you need to save enough industry to equip and supply your future armed forces - but there is no advantage and even a disadvantage for going beyond this.

So conversely as an Axis player if you cannot capture enough industry to get them below these thresholds, then there is no advantage to having done it at all.

My only doubt is even if manpower is constrained, can saving more arms and heavy industry make a given number of men better equipped and armed and so more combat effective? If so then I would assume there is always a case for saving more industry - and a case for Axis players always to stop them.



chaos45 -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/10/2018 11:23:59 AM)

soviets need 180 heavy approx. and probably around 275 armaments points for no issues at all...used to be 300 armaments but with the production/manpower controls/reductions in the game now for the soviets they cant really use extra armaments over that. So just end up with huge surpluses now due to lack of men to use the weapons lol.



xhoel -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/10/2018 12:18:27 PM)

Thanks to both of you for the info. It does reinforce my idea that capturing the industry does not have the effects it would have IRL. I guess my joy for capturing the Donbass industry was premature [:D]



chaos45 -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/10/2018 12:39:07 PM)

When soviets had a higher(more realistic to history) manpower gain it did matter but with the lower soviet manpower recruitment it no longer seems to matter as the soviets quickly run out of men before they run out of weapons.



Stelteck -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/10/2018 1:10:15 PM)

Currently the issue i see soviet side are the following :

- Manpower : you need every bit you can. But you have few control about how to evacuate it.
- Trucks : You need every truck you can, so evacuating truck factory is high priority.
Then Heavy industries, then Armement.

Heavy industries you need just enough. 180 looks ok.
Armaments points : You can probably go really low. Save what you can with low priority and the only time you will lack Arm Points is one month in december 1941 and situation will be restored with the new 1942 production factor.

Relative to equipment, save one point for everything. Eventually :
- Saving IL-2 is interesting as it is your best plane so the earlier you begin mass production the better.
- Try to have the biggest light tank production possible because you will always lack light tanks.
- T-34 and KV-1 are interesting but only in a long war because you will lack tanks in 1944. (But not all game go to 1944).



thedoctorking -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/10/2018 3:31:01 PM)

I try to save at least half of the key equipment factories: IL-2, Mig-3 (which become IL-2) and the other IL-2 successors, Lagg-3 (which become La-5), T-34, light tank, Li-2. You're right that manpower is the key constraint on ground unit production.



beender -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/10/2018 11:07:33 PM)

I don't understand the point of having too much ARM points very well. Soviet can just build some ARM-expensive SUs to expend them, can't they?



Stelteck -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/11/2018 6:57:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

I don't understand the point of having too much ARM points very well. Soviet can just build some ARM-expensive SUs to expend them, can't they?


There is not such thing you are able to mass produce. The production of each type of guns is also limited by manpower and an internal software limit so even with Unlimited arm you can struggle to fill your artillery divisions for example.
At least breakthough divisions use all sorts of guns so the effect is mitigated. But if you create an artillery division that use one or two types of guns only, such as Heavy Howitzer division, the division will take forever to fill.



xhoel -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/11/2018 9:25:03 AM)

Well it seems like the manpower production needs to be fixed. As far as I know the Soviets only started having manpower problems around 44-45. And maybe lower ARM production?



beender -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/11/2018 11:01:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

I don't understand the point of having too much ARM points very well. Soviet can just build some ARM-expensive SUs to expend them, can't they?


There is not such thing you are able to mass produce. The production of each type of guns is also limited by manpower and an internal software limit so even with Unlimited arm you can struggle to fill your artillery divisions for example.
At least breakthough divisions use all sorts of guns so the effect is mitigated. But if you create an artillery division that use one or two types of guns only, such as Heavy Howitzer division, the division will take forever to fill.


I didn't know there were built-in upper limits for all types of artillery production. It is sad if you work so hard to save industry only to see ARM points piling up with no use.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/11/2018 12:47:51 PM)

@Stelteck: According to the editor, there is a limit for a few types of guns only. For example, a 76mm AT gun type seems to have production cap, but I do not know the meaning of the build limit information 100%.
[image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/54093/60742E0B63B641C9869C35C4882D8D1D.jpg[/image]

@xhoel: It seems very difficult to win a game by the capture of industry without winning it in other branches as well, meaning that industry is seldom the decisive factor. More detailed analysis on this regard is WiP but 170HI and 280Arms should be sufficient. If under pressure, you can go lower with both. The old numbers of 200/300 are definitely too high. Evacuating more armament points when excess rail cap is at hand is still useful because you shorten the time from late 1941 to some point in 1942 when arms are a constraint.

@beender: Even ef there were no build limit for artillery-imagine the amount of clicking necessary to build all the support units that use the 7millions of APs some players have banked in late 1944/early 1945!




AlexSF -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/11/2018 1:40:35 PM)

On a slightly different subject but still about Soviet production I don't understand some of the evacuation guides. They write about some factories stopping production soon and therefore not worth evacuating.
One example is the BA-10(in Kolpino) that is supposed to stop producing in 9/41. When I look at the production screen and the BA-10 screen it says it will upgrade to BA-64 in April 42.
Same thing with the SU-2 in Kharkov. Guides writes about it stopping production in 12/41. But in game the screen tells me it will upgrade to IL-2M in October 42.
Am I missing something ?

ps; the guide I mention is 'A collection of the Best Great War in the East Posts V3 ' found in the 'War Room' section



Stelteck -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/11/2018 1:52:07 PM)

Evacuate 1 points of anything. The guide is too old.

Do not leave things behind. 1 points is easy.



AlexSF -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/11/2018 1:57:39 PM)

hmmm...this is what I thought. So basically trust the in game screen not the so-called evac guide.



Telemecus -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/11/2018 2:21:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexSF
Guides writes about it stopping production in 12/41. But in game the screen tells me it will upgrade to IL-2M in October 42.
Am I missing something ?



Yes - the airgroups upgrade to Il-2M from Su-2 - not the factory! Similar thing on armoured cars etc. Beware to not confuse airgroups upgrades with factory upgrades.



AlexSF -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/11/2018 2:42:54 PM)


Oooh now that's important (and not clear at all in the manual). Then yes, the SU-2 factory's First date in Jan 41 and last date is March 42. So it does stop producing in March 42, right?
Same for the BA-10 in Kolpino, last date shows October 41. Then it makes sens not to evacuate this one for sure.
I guess the 24 factories in Gorky producing the BA-64 it upgrades to just appear in April 42 ?



thedoctorking -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/11/2018 6:13:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexSF


Oooh now that's important (and not clear at all in the manual). Then yes, the SU-2 factory's First date in Jan 41 and last date is March 42. So it does stop producing in March 42, right?
Same for the BA-10 in Kolpino, last date shows October 41. Then it makes sens not to evacuate this one for sure.
I guess the 24 factories in Gorky producing the BA-64 it upgrades to just appear in April 42 ?

Sort of. The BA-64 factory in Gorky exists from turn 1, it just isn't producing anything until April 42. If the Axis were likely to overrun Gorky for some reason, you would need to evacuate those factories (at least 1 point). It's probably making Lada SUV's until then [:D]

There are some factories that will be critical later that you have to evacuate early on: the IL-10 factory in Voronezh springs to mind.



xhoel -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/12/2018 5:21:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@Stelteck: According to the editor, there is a limit for a few types of guns only. For example, a 76mm AT gun type seems to have production cap, but I do not know the meaning of the build limit information 100%.
[image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/54093/60742E0B63B641C9869C35C4882D8D1D.jpg[/image]

@xhoel: It seems very difficult to win a game by the capture of industry without winning it in other branches as well, meaning that industry is seldom the decisive factor. More detailed analysis on this regard is WiP but 170HI and 280Arms should be sufficient. If under pressure, you can go lower with both. The old numbers of 200/300 are definitely too high. Evacuating more armament points when excess rail cap is at hand is still useful because you shorten the time from late 1941 to some point in 1942 when arms are a constraint.

@beender: Even ef there were no build limit for artillery-imagine the amount of clicking necessary to build all the support units that use the 7millions of APs some players have banked in late 1944/early 1945!




My intention was not to win the war simply by capturing/destroying the Soviet industry, just wanted some pointers so I could see if I made a dent to Soviet production and it seems I have not. I think it is pretty hard as the Germans to capture more than 100 ARM points and the amount of HI needed to make it hard for the Soviets to reach their full potential.



56ajax -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/13/2018 9:48:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

I don't understand the point of having too much ARM points very well. Soviet can just build some ARM-expensive SUs to expend them, can't they?


There is not such thing you are able to mass produce. The production of each type of guns is also limited by manpower and an internal software limit so even with Unlimited arm you can struggle to fill your artillery divisions for example.
At least breakthough divisions use all sorts of guns so the effect is mitigated. But if you create an artillery division that use one or two types of guns only, such as Heavy Howitzer division, the division will take forever to fill.

Just want to question the statement in bold. Is there a manpower input into production? I thought all manpower went into the armed forces. If you don't have enough manpower you may not be able to crew your tanks, guns etc but it doesn't stop them being built.



xhoel -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/13/2018 11:34:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

I don't understand the point of having too much ARM points very well. Soviet can just build some ARM-expensive SUs to expend them, can't they?


There is not such thing you are able to mass produce. The production of each type of guns is also limited by manpower and an internal software limit so even with Unlimited arm you can struggle to fill your artillery divisions for example.
At least breakthough divisions use all sorts of guns so the effect is mitigated. But if you create an artillery division that use one or two types of guns only, such as Heavy Howitzer division, the division will take forever to fill.

Just want to question the statement in bold. Is there a manpower input into production? I thought all manpower went into the armed forces. If you don't have enough manpower you may not be able to crew your tanks, guns etc but it doesn't stop them being built.


An element is considered build when the element (tank, gun etc) is matched with the respective manpower, which means you cannot simply produce guns without the needed crew for it. The game doesn't track crew and items seperately.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/13/2018 12:30:42 PM)

quote:

The game doesn't track crew and items seperately.

I think it does. The equipment you see in the pools is really just the equipment without manpower. The manpower gets added if the equipment type is put in a unit.

At least that was the reply I got to the same question for the WitW/WitE2 engine and I assume it to be the same in WitE.
However, I am not an expert on those things.

quote:

just wanted some pointers so I could see if I made a dent to Soviet production and it seems I have not

The only time when it will be felt will be late 1941/early 1942 for the Soviets. Before and after that time your captured industry wont restrain the Soviets.



xhoel -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/13/2018 12:57:50 PM)

I stand corrected then.



morvael -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/13/2018 5:48:31 PM)

In the pool equipment is separate from manpower. Just the hardware. In units the two are joined together.



AlexSF -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/16/2018 10:09:59 AM)

About manpower;
Let's say a game where the Soviet keeps Moscow but loses Leningrd and the Ukraine including Rostov in end of 1941. He is down roughly from 3660 to 3200 in manpower, right?
Given that it seems that manpower and not ARM/HI is the critical factor now where would you say the threshold is before the Soviets can't make a come back? 3200 in manpower? 3000?



Stelteck -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/16/2018 10:55:15 AM)

What is come back for you ?

If you are thinking of counter attacking the german and going on the offensive, the soviet can do that even when loosing everything.

But it will be still be a huge defeat for victory points in the bitter end scenario for example.



AlexSF -> RE: Soviet industry pointers (9/16/2018 11:00:08 AM)

By come back I mean taking Berlin in 45 without finding myself short of manpower (with too much ARM for my available manpower basically)



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